What Should I Have Said? Re: Holocaust

[TowerRavenSeven]

Recently dh and I attended an acquaintances party. The host’s wife recently moved from Germany. Our son was supposed to do an internship there (ended up changing plans) so naturally we were speaking about Germany. Out of the blue, she says ‘you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we (meaning Germany) move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust? We’ve said we’re sorry, can’t we just move on from it?”
My mouth dropped open and I know I gave a deer in the headlights stare. She wasn’t really asking a question it was more of a remark. I know I was being unreasonable not saying anything - I Wanted to say, no we can’t forget, we must remember! But as their guest it made me so extremely uncomfortable, I didn’t want to have a row with the hosts at their home. She already knew how I felt with my mouth dropping open and - but if this ever happens again, what is a good response to such a statement?

This attitude on Germany is starting to gain ground precisely because the fat right is becoming more powerful there, and they don't want people to remember where far right hatred leads. It's more important than ever to remember.

We all should remember our past and make changes, otherwise we'd still be beating children, persecuting gay people and allowing men to rape their wives.
Being randomly born somewhere isn't an achievement to be proud of or failure to be ashamed of though.

I think there was definately a misunderstanding on your part here.

If someone said that to me I would assume that they were talking about moving on from the guilt that modern Germans seem to be expected to feel. It wouldn't cross my mind that they were saying we should forget about the holocaust.

One of our children lives in the west of Germany with their German partner. Given that they were both born in the 1990s the Shoah was more than half a century away then, and the same is true to the vast majority of Germans, so they have moved on, I would say.

But they tell me that the former East German part of Germany is much less educated in that way, as the rise of the 'AFD' shows (they are openly pro-Nazi and many members are anti-Semitic). If they ever get into power there is a very good chance we will see a repeat of the 1930s.

Theirs is a genocide happening right now, children being burned alive in tents by European and American weapons. Never again is now and we’re doing nothing to stop it because it’s happening to brown people apparently and they ‘deserve it’ for the actions of a terrorist group.

This

I think what needs to be remembered (as has been said previously) is that it was the Nazis that perpetrated the Holocaust and not the German people. That’s why the Far Right should never be allowed to have power again. Unfortunately though, populism is on the rise.

Your description states that she said ‘shouldn’t Germans be able to move on from the guilt’. That is perfectly reasonable.

Nope. Not saying anything in front of this huge van driving towards you…and your deers eyes are all that was needed as an answer.

whom EVER can ask this question. But if an answer is really needed:

No, there is absolutely nothing Germany can do to wipe the history clean because they lost. If they conquered the world, like everyone else, they will be able to re-edit all the history books and 30years later people might have forgotten.

There. That might have been interesting to get her views in this.

🫣

I'm in Krakow now for a few days, visiting the Christmas market and the sights.

We were in Auschwitz yesterday. Sobering and devastating. There were various nationalities among the visitors, including some Germans. At no point it occured to me 'oh, you! You did this!'. I mean, I'm originally from the country who is (shamefully and unfortunately) known for aiding nazis in killing Jewish people (also there were those who saved them, but that doesn't change the shameful fact). I'm not proud of my past-countrymen, but I'm 36, I do not feel responsible for their crimes in any way. Same goes for the current Germans. If I'd be German, I wouldn't appreciate my nose being rubbed in it.

We should never forget, but I do not agree with the collective guilt of current nowaday people.

She said move on from the guilt not forget about it. That’s reflecting on guilt carried within the culture which perhaps she was especially conscious of, having recently moved.

Something may have triggered what she said, but it seemed rhetorical anyway and better you didn’t say anything. What you wanted to say wouldn’t have helped.

None of my posts were removed

And as far as i can see Israel has not been singled out on this thread. It's not about criticism of a state or government (and none should be above criticism). We remember the Holocaust to remember the victims, to remember the suffering and to ensure it never happens again, yet genocides have happened since and are happening right now. We don't seem to learn from history. As a previous poster said - history doesn't seem to repeat itself it rhymes.

Thank you for sharing this, sadly I don't find it a surprising testimony. Your post will get glossed over by many reading this thread but it's pertinent for all because atrocities against 'the other' have, and continue to be, a fact of all human civilisations; neither trying to sweep that fact under the carpet nor demanding that young generations atone for the sins of their forefathers does anyone any good. Nor does paying lip service, pretending to yourself as much as anyone else that you're actually listening to others, putting yourself in their shoes, questioning your assumptions etc when in fact you're just waiting to share your preconceived and righteous 'point of view'.

And you brought this up on a thread about the Holocaust in the 1930s/40s because?

The Nazis were also the German people, to some extent. The level of propaganda and indoctrination is something most of us in places like the UK won't even comprehend.

Perhaps we should all be reminded of atrocities perpetrated by our countries in the past. Lest we forget, sort of thing. But the English don’t like it either; look at the furore among National Trust members when the role of slavery and the slave trade in enriching privileged English people began to be highlighted.

I wonder how many times this gets brought up when she's talking about her home country, to make her get on the defensive before it's mentioned.

I suspect rather more than is reasonable.

I don't think she or other Germans that were not involved should have to feel guilty for it. Just like I don't feel like I need to feel guilty for the colonisation of other countries or Britain's involvement in the slave trade.

I think that's a fair comment. Did she suggest forgetting about it? Because that idea seems to have come from you.

I was born and grew up in Germany, but my parents are not German - so I don't consider myself German. I moved to the UK when I was barely a teenager and I can say that I've faced all sorts of bullshit hitler chat throughout the years.

It's absolute bullshit. Yes, Germans literally feel like they should be sorry for what another generation did. None of my ancestors were German so they didn't even do anything, but that's beside the point. The amount of times I've been humiliated in public, at school, at uni and EVEN at work. You would not believe it. I'm not even German ! I don't look German. I just speak it.

I feel embarrassed when I speak German in public because I don't want people to see me as a German.

In a way, I am glad to see that history is also holding the brits accountable for what their ancestors did longer ago. At least you know how it feels a bit now to be German / perceived as German.

What I mean is, of course we are sorry what happened. But it's almost like you're personally responsible for it, in the eyes of some people.

That's horrible.
Please don't stop speaking German though - I've been learning for a few years now and can honestly say I think it's the most amazingly expressive and beautiful language, that I've really come to love.

Strange thing to say but she was right.
She didn't say it should be forgotten. She said the Germany of today shouldn't feel guilty. She's right, they shouldn't.

Then you have lived a very sheltered life.

I've lived in England for over 20 years. I am from Germany. I am also a teacher (not of MfL, as it happens).

I cannot count the number of times I have encountered xenophobic "jokes" all made about the second world war.

From responses ranging from "Jawohl, mein Fuehrer" to the Hitler salute when I have made a request, to taking a register and being responded to with "Heil", to numerous questions about whether I am related to Hitler. I have had "two world wars and one world cup" sung at me a few times, my ex husband thought it'd be funny to quote a war poem at my (thankfully fully ignorant of the "joke") uncle at my wedding and my child has been bullied throughout year 5 at school when the class first learned about WW2. All of this from adults as well as children.

I am not responsible for the atrocities committed. I know my grandfathers both were forced to fight in the war or lose their lives at 16.

Not once have I brought up the atrocities committed by British people throughout the Commonwealth, because people in this day and age are just as far removed from what was acceptable then.

No, we should never forget, but we should also not continue to bring it up every time we meet a person from a country who started a war. We'd all come out looking far worse for it.

No, we did not. We learned about it pretty much annually, yes, but much more from an analytical "how did this happen, why did this happen" point of view, which then enabled us to think about preventing this sort of thing happening again in the future, including spotting the signs.

And I'm East German, the supposedly "uneducated" lot, according to a PP. That the East are more sympathising to the AfD, by the way, happens for the same reason the North of England is more likely to be sympathetic to Britain First here - levels of poverty and state underinvestment are much higher.

How horrible for you.
Some folk are just ignorant and don't have any problem demonstrating that.

Are you likely to see her again? Or do you just want to feel more generally prepared to respond to comments like that?
Do you want to be able to respond to stand up to injustice, or to avoid awkward moments?