What Should I Have Said? Re: Holocaust

[TowerRavenSeven]

Recently dh and I attended an acquaintances party. The host’s wife recently moved from Germany. Our son was supposed to do an internship there (ended up changing plans) so naturally we were speaking about Germany. Out of the blue, she says ‘you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we (meaning Germany) move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust? We’ve said we’re sorry, can’t we just move on from it?”
My mouth dropped open and I know I gave a deer in the headlights stare. She wasn’t really asking a question it was more of a remark. I know I was being unreasonable not saying anything - I Wanted to say, no we can’t forget, we must remember! But as their guest it made me so extremely uncomfortable, I didn’t want to have a row with the hosts at their home. She already knew how I felt with my mouth dropping open and - but if this ever happens again, what is a good response to such a statement?

I think that's crazy too. I'm not responsible for anything my country or its people did in the past.

I think we can feel appalled by history without feeling guilt or responsibility for it. A lot of people like to make things more black and white than that though. I don't see it as my problem

Feeling guilt for our ancestors is a normal response to poor behaviour and I personally feel is a good thing in shaping who we want to be today.

I DO feel very bad for much or Africa who were and ARE being exploited by the West. I personally haven’t done anything to create the inequality but I certainly feel awful that I live a life of relative luxury compared.

It doesn’t make me have sleepless nights, nor I punished for it, but it does make me think twice about my choices (for example, I give to charity and I advocate for equality).

Feeling a sense of guilt isn’t a bad thing.

Don’t Christians talk about living in sin, how Jesus died for them? They weren’t around thousands of years ago, yet they feel responsible and it shapes their beliefs and behaviours today.

I think it’s ok to feel a little guilt in behalf of your grandparents, as long as it moves the country further away from those beliefs (which would have existed well beyond Hitlers death).

As many others have said - something got lost in cultural translation. Just because someone speaks good English, doesn't mean they understand your culture, or you understand theirs. Germans are raised and educated to feel a lot of guilt about WW2, still.

To a degree it's still very much 'don't mention the war' in Germany. Whereas most people in the UK wouldn't expect the current generation to feel any guilt about it.

Odd subject for a party, mind...

I mean the Brits invented concentration camps. I'd be pretty fed up if people felt I was still somehow culpable.

We most emphatically did not invent concentration camps in the way they existed in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s.

we’re still made to feel guilty for the UK’s role in the slave trade which ended over 200 years ago

We don't hear much about other countries' role in the slave trade, which in many cases continued long after Britain had ended it, and which Britain played a part in putting down.

There are people in Germany who had grandparents who were Nazis. They probably loved them, thought grandpa was so much fun etc - so it’s no wonder they feel more connected to it, and a greater sense of the need to apologise. No one in the UK can remember a relative who was a slave trader. The last surviving slave trader in the UK would have died at least 150 years ago, so it’s much less relatable for us in the UK.

Can we forget about the 5 million people slaughtered simply because of their religion?

How weird and ignorant is this woman you encountered.I would have given her a piece of my mind;I'm the great great granddaughter of a Jewish immigrant and I'd have found her comment offensive.

I'm sorry you had to deal with this ridiculous woman.

I'd try her to give her anymore headspace.

Perhaps her family was involved as perpetrators and that’s why she felt the need to reply as she did? Who knows but her reply was out of order.

The ‘history’ is still happening though.

The UK is supplying arms to some of the worst regimes in the world. For their own purposes.

The game is still domination, it’s just that it’s called ‘foreign policy’ now instead of ‘colonialism’.

Have I misunderstood, was she just saying that current Germans shouldn’t shoulder the guilt, but didn’t say we should forget the horror of the camps

So basically she said that her parents are retired and live at the south of Germany and then said straight after : you know it’s been 80 years can we …,
Surely it can’t be like this there should be something in between.

Exactly.

I don’t understand why some people on this thread are speaking as if Britain has taken more responsibility and accountability for their role in slavery and the empire than Germany did for the Holocaust?

It’s just factually untrue.

There’s no comparison - read up on all Germany as did in relation to their past whereas Britain will not even so much as apologise.

And also the British empire wasn’t just centuries ago ffs , many countries got independence post world war 2.

This is why it needs to be taught properly in all schools!

Well you’ve met one. Congrats!

It was a huge massacre of over 6 million people. Whether that’s a word you’d use or not, I think it’s an apt description of the atrocity. I’m sorry if you find that offensive.

I really don’t care for people doubting my religion. I’m 35 years old, trust me when I say, I know I’m Jewish. And yes, I went to chedar. And yes, I had a bat mitzvah. And yes, I also spent years of my childhood learning about it the shoah.

Hmm its a weird notion but as a teenager in Germany I actively noticed a palpable sense of shame in the population. Not that they were to blame as such but so many germans turned a blind eye to starvation, mass deportations, murders - most likely out of fear in the end but still. They are bringing up their children with a sense of shame - much like the attempt to make current 'white' people feel guilty for slavery... we didn't do it so it's not our shame to feel. I expect that's what she is trying yo express... not very eloquently though

Have never lived in Germany but have taught many German students, and totally agree with this. I was astonished at the level of shame they seemed to carry, and that they thought that it was understandable to be abused by other Europeans. I had to deal with a really uncomfortable student disciplinary case that this was at the heart of, and I felt really sad for the German student who was the victim.

I don't disagree about learning from the past and there being a certain benefit to collective shame regarding past atrocities committed by a country. However, from my understanding of what it's like for German people (from my German friends), there is a deep seated sense of guilt instilled in Germans from a very young age about the Nazi regime and the Holocaust, and in many ways, it's actually a very negative thing, because it means they carry a great deal of shame about their country, their ancestors, and by extension, themselves as belonging to that lineage. Many Germans are now starting to challenge this attitude and recognise how damaging it is. I think unless you've grown up in Germany, we probably can't really appreciate what it must be like to have that legacy hanging over you.

No of course you weren’t being unreasonable. I’m not one to keep quiet, at all, if someone speaks out of turn-but I think even I would have been stunned into silence at such an ignorant statement.

We should Never forget the holocaust. Ever. Every man, woman and child alive today has a responsibility to make sure it’s never forgotten for future generations.

Though obviously we shouldn’t be blaming any Germans alive today for it, (apart from any surviving members of those who shall not be named here)
If that’s what she meant, then I agree in principle, but her wording was callous and terrible (and would seriously make me question if she’s someone I would tolerate in my life)

Personally, I think there's a difference between 'moving on' and 'forgetting', and she was probably trying to say that Germans view that period of history with the same remorse as anyone else.

Although I can relate to your reaction as well. It would not go down well if a British person said similar about the Empire - it threatens to sound like a minimisation of what went on, which is still a very real upset for many.

I would have said if we don’t learn from our mistakes of the past how can we stop them having them in future. One of my favourite sayings is ( paraphrased) All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing!

That is true, we won’t know what it feels like.

Do you think it could be a purposeful method to (relatively) quickly stamp out the antisemitic and racist beliefs that many Nazis would have continued beyond the 1945? Or at least make them more taboo to share in public?

That’s a very interesting thought. It has never occurred to me in quite that way before.

@WhimsicalGubbins76 But the woman didn't say that we should forget the Holocaust. She said shouldn't we move on from the guilt of the Holocaust. That's an entirely different sentiment.

She was also speaking in a second language, so she may not have been able to find the exact words to get across the nuance of what she wanted to say. German is a much more 'direct' language than English, so it may well be that some of what she was trying to say was lost in translation.

I don't think a dinner party is the correct forum for a truth & reconciliation discussion. This is such a complex thing, it's really not something to be discussed lightly.

I would have done the same as you probably. If I'd had my wits about me I might have said "for as long as any remaining trauma remains, no, we can't move on from collective guilt. It can be a powerful and productive emotion".

What an odd comment, for her to bring it up unprompted. Maybe she did it first deliberately, just to get it out there.

I actually see things differently. Many Germans were aware of the atrocities, many Germans benefited from acquiring Jewish businesses.

The history of how every day Germans behaved, their conduct generally, as part of the nazi party, being scared of the nazi party, doing anything to avoid being punished themselves, dobbing others in, is very very complex.

@AquaPeer your friend is wrong on two points.

Jewish people are not " white European" - it is a totally different culture

Other genocides were in thousands individually as opposed to millions.,

It was tactless of her to say that! You can't hold today's generations of Germans accountable but also it should never be forgotten what happened.
I say that as a person who has a half jewish mother (non religious) who also has 40 plus German relatives due to my grans sister marrying a German POW after WW2 ended. The older generations of Germans were truly uncomfortable discussing what took place in WW2 & the holocaust, it was regarded as an off limits topic.
I have visited Auschwitz & was truly shocked at what I saw that day, it should never be forgotten, especially given the recent rise of anti-semetic sentiment.