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What Should I Have Said? Re: Holocaust

244 replies

TowerRavenSeven · 19/12/2024 21:13

Recently dh and I attended an acquaintances party. The host’s wife recently moved from Germany. Our son was supposed to do an internship there (ended up changing plans) so naturally we were speaking about Germany. Out of the blue, she says ‘you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we (meaning Germany) move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust? We’ve said we’re sorry, can’t we just move on from it?”
My mouth dropped open and I know I gave a deer in the headlights stare. She wasn’t really asking a question it was more of a remark. I know I was being unreasonable not saying anything - I Wanted to say, no we can’t forget, we must remember! But as their guest it made me so extremely uncomfortable, I didn’t want to have a row with the hosts at their home. She already knew how I felt with my mouth dropping open and - but if this ever happens again, what is a good response to such a statement?

OP posts:
ueberlin2030 · 21/12/2024 09:29

FromerGerman · 21/12/2024 09:23

No, we did not. We learned about it pretty much annually, yes, but much more from an analytical "how did this happen, why did this happen" point of view, which then enabled us to think about preventing this sort of thing happening again in the future, including spotting the signs.

And I'm East German, the supposedly "uneducated" lot, according to a PP. That the East are more sympathising to the AfD, by the way, happens for the same reason the North of England is more likely to be sympathetic to Britain First here - levels of poverty and state underinvestment are much higher.

I'm not German, but very interested in German history, current affairs, culture and language. While I'm definitely anti AfD I can also understand how many Germans in the former east feel disillusioned and let down. I also cannot comprehend what it must have felt like for your country and systems of living to disappear, even if you weren't satisfied with aspects of it.

FromerGerman · 21/12/2024 09:48

ueberlin2030 · 21/12/2024 09:29

I'm not German, but very interested in German history, current affairs, culture and language. While I'm definitely anti AfD I can also understand how many Germans in the former east feel disillusioned and let down. I also cannot comprehend what it must have felt like for your country and systems of living to disappear, even if you weren't satisfied with aspects of it.

Edited

At risk of derailing (sorry if I am), my mother, like many people at the time, lost her job immediately and struggled, for a long time, to find a new one due to her age and the fact she was a parent.

I don't think, for many people, it was the loss of systems as such, although if that's all you've ever known, then readjustment would have been difficult. It was the huge economic impact of the reunion that had an impact that it still felt to this day.

My History teacher used to tell us about 100% employment in the Soviet Union. Everyone had a job, even if it was a pointless one, and therefore everyone had money, even if it was only a little. Most ordinary folk had the same flats, furniture, opportunities for travel around the SU. There was little variety in terms of food (with a lot of black market trading), everyone who drove, drove the same type of car - a Trabandt.

When the reuinion happened, along with it came capitalism. People lost their jobs, their old money was worth a lot less, inequality rose, there was more choice of goods and suddenly everyone had different things and different opportunities. The East needed to be modernised and the West resented paying for it. Yes, there was more freedom, including freedom of thought, and you were no longer prosecuted for holding the wrong ideals or not conforming. Pensions were still unequal between the East and the West for the same jobs when I last visited in around 2010.

The feeling of inequality remains, from everything I hear from my remaining few family members. The West is seen as arrogant by the East, while the West perceives the East as dumb and fascist. It doesn't excuse, but at least explain, why there are many more East Germans showing sympathy to right-wing parties.

ueberlin2030 · 21/12/2024 10:27

@FromerGerman I don't think it's derailing at all and thanks for sharing that.

GoldenGail · 21/12/2024 11:25

LocalHobo · 19/12/2024 21:40

When I visit sites in Germany that are connected with WW2, I notice that the guides are clear that the atrocities were committed by Nazi's as opposed to Germans. The events are, and should be, remembered.

Yeah but the nazis WERE Germans and the people stood back . I had ancestors who were exterminated because their very nice non nazi neighbours grassed on them

Gwenhwyfar · 21/12/2024 11:39

GoldenGail · 21/12/2024 11:25

Yeah but the nazis WERE Germans and the people stood back . I had ancestors who were exterminated because their very nice non nazi neighbours grassed on them

Yes, and the German population recognises this.
It was many years ago now with none of the relevant people still alive and I totally agree that it's time for them to move on from the guilt.

Errors · 21/12/2024 11:43

LocalHobo · 19/12/2024 21:40

When I visit sites in Germany that are connected with WW2, I notice that the guides are clear that the atrocities were committed by Nazi's as opposed to Germans. The events are, and should be, remembered.

This!
My grandmother was German was alive during WWII… she had no idea what was going on with the concentration camps at that point and had been subjected to years of brainwashing propaganda prior to it.

GoldenGail · 21/12/2024 11:45

Gwenhwyfar · 21/12/2024 11:39

Yes, and the German population recognises this.
It was many years ago now with none of the relevant people still alive and I totally agree that it's time for them to move on from the guilt.

I agree but my point was that the guides separate the nazis from the German people and so don’t take any responsibility. Own it and move on

Gwenhwyfar · 21/12/2024 11:47

Errors · 21/12/2024 11:43

This!
My grandmother was German was alive during WWII… she had no idea what was going on with the concentration camps at that point and had been subjected to years of brainwashing propaganda prior to it.

Plenty of people did know though, including in other countries. Local people saw the trains going past and smelt the burning flesh.

ueberlin2030 · 21/12/2024 12:41

GoldenGail · 21/12/2024 11:25

Yeah but the nazis WERE Germans and the people stood back . I had ancestors who were exterminated because their very nice non nazi neighbours grassed on them

They were also many highly indoctrinated Germans. Just look at some of the conspiracy theories and folk who easily fall for them nowadays, and imagine living in a country fuelled daily by propaganda. Also, remember the political situation at the end of WW1 and the state of the German economy - people were starving and/or unemployed and there was a period of hyperinflation! The National Socialists initially presented themselves as 'make Germany great again' type of party, much like Trump is doing in the USA, and the narrative was twisted to make everything seem the fault of Jews and other minority groups. It's not as simple as saying people were evil, though some clearly were.

cakeorwine · 21/12/2024 12:45

GoldenGail · 21/12/2024 11:25

Yeah but the nazis WERE Germans and the people stood back . I had ancestors who were exterminated because their very nice non nazi neighbours grassed on them

Do you know what happened to people who did try to resist the Nazis in Germany?

UndeniablyGenX · 21/12/2024 12:51

I think I would have said that it's possible to move on without forgetting.

ueberlin2030 · 21/12/2024 12:52

UndeniablyGenX · 21/12/2024 12:51

I think I would have said that it's possible to move on without forgetting.

It's not though.

GoldenGail · 21/12/2024 15:44

cakeorwine · 21/12/2024 12:45

Do you know what happened to people who did try to resist the Nazis in Germany?

Of course I do but there is a marked difference between resisting and collaboration.

Errors · 21/12/2024 16:31

Gwenhwyfar · 21/12/2024 11:47

Plenty of people did know though, including in other countries. Local people saw the trains going past and smelt the burning flesh.

Yes, sadly they did. Powerful messages were disseminated during that time. Genocide.org lists the ten steps to genocide and unfortunately, these people were dehumanised which made it easier by by standers to stomach it. Along with the cold and orderly nature of the whole operation. I’ve been to Auschwitz and it was truly chilling.
However, we mustnt forget about it we cannot blame Germany or German people today for what came about back then, any more than you can blame me for slavery.

ueberlin2030 · 21/12/2024 16:42

Errors · 21/12/2024 16:31

Yes, sadly they did. Powerful messages were disseminated during that time. Genocide.org lists the ten steps to genocide and unfortunately, these people were dehumanised which made it easier by by standers to stomach it. Along with the cold and orderly nature of the whole operation. I’ve been to Auschwitz and it was truly chilling.
However, we mustnt forget about it we cannot blame Germany or German people today for what came about back then, any more than you can blame me for slavery.

Even if people did know about some of it, what could they actually do without risking their own lives? People like to think they'd be braver but I'm not so sure. It's all too horrific to comprehend, for me at least.

cakeorwine · 21/12/2024 18:31

GoldenGail · 21/12/2024 15:44

Of course I do but there is a marked difference between resisting and collaboration.

Do you think that it's sometimes easier with hindsight to say what should have been done but it's much more difficult when people are actually in that situation?

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2024 11:52

ueberlin2030 · 21/12/2024 12:52

It's not though.

Ho do you mean? It's possible to remember things without feeling guilty about them.

ueberlin2030 · 22/12/2024 16:10

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2024 11:52

Ho do you mean? It's possible to remember things without feeling guilty about them.

Sorry, I misread your possible as impossible.
I agree with what you actually wrote and not what I misread.

Beezee098 · 23/12/2024 13:25

TowerRavenSeven · 19/12/2024 21:13

Recently dh and I attended an acquaintances party. The host’s wife recently moved from Germany. Our son was supposed to do an internship there (ended up changing plans) so naturally we were speaking about Germany. Out of the blue, she says ‘you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we (meaning Germany) move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust? We’ve said we’re sorry, can’t we just move on from it?”
My mouth dropped open and I know I gave a deer in the headlights stare. She wasn’t really asking a question it was more of a remark. I know I was being unreasonable not saying anything - I Wanted to say, no we can’t forget, we must remember! But as their guest it made me so extremely uncomfortable, I didn’t want to have a row with the hosts at their home. She already knew how I felt with my mouth dropping open and - but if this ever happens again, what is a good response to such a statement?

I mean I agreed with never forgetting atrocities so future generations can learn but when we have genocides being delivered to us on a live feed and our government's have decided to fund it, I've decided not to always remember the specific atrocities that they want us to.

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