What Should I Have Said? Re: Holocaust

[TowerRavenSeven]

Recently dh and I attended an acquaintances party. The host’s wife recently moved from Germany. Our son was supposed to do an internship there (ended up changing plans) so naturally we were speaking about Germany. Out of the blue, she says ‘you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we (meaning Germany) move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust? We’ve said we’re sorry, can’t we just move on from it?”
My mouth dropped open and I know I gave a deer in the headlights stare. She wasn’t really asking a question it was more of a remark. I know I was being unreasonable not saying anything - I Wanted to say, no we can’t forget, we must remember! But as their guest it made me so extremely uncomfortable, I didn’t want to have a row with the hosts at their home. She already knew how I felt with my mouth dropping open and - but if this ever happens again, what is a good response to such a statement?

If it happens again I would say well we’re still made to feel guilty for the UK’s role in the slave trade which ended over 200 years ago, so tough!
Seriously though, I think these things should never be forgotten, but I don’t think current generations should be made to feel guilty about it. I had absolutely nothing to do with the slave trade, so why should I apologise for something I didn’t do?

I've heard the way Germans learn about it is not as we do. We learn it was a tragedy that should never be repeated- and so we should. They learn that as Germans they are sinners because it happened at the hands of Germans, and they should be ashamed. So rather than saying let's not learn about it I understand this as let's not make our children feel shame as though they did it. However she should have been more careful about what she said and how it came across.

How odd that she randomly bought it up. If it happens again maybe say that she is the one who raised the subject of the holocaust and you'd rather discuss the vol au vents and stay away from discussing the holocaust at a party as you feel it has the potential to cause upset

I once taught at a language school where a German kid talked about how he went on holiday somewhere and was hated by a couple of other teenagers 'because of the war'. He said it entirely matter-of-factly, just in passing, but it did make me think that it was a poor inheritance for him, to be bullied by other kids for something like that.

I’d feel uncomfortable. 1) bringing up a massacre at a party is wrong. 2) Talking about it and then dismissing it with such ease is wrong. 3) no, we must not just ‘move on’, 89 years is no time at all and people MuST remember, not only for Jewish people but for all persecuted people. This is what can happen when a racist leader gets in power.

Anyone who isn’t uncomfortable perhaps doesn’t realise what exactly went on in concentration camps and just how they came about.

But she didn't say "Can we forget about the holocaust." I'm with her to a degree. Germany and most of the Germans alive today have nothing to do with that time. If modern-day Germans are still being made to repent for the sins of their fathers, then modern-day Brits should also still be made to repent for the atrocities their fathers carried out. Or, you know, we can acknowledge that people in the past did bad things, without taking it out on their descendants who are alive today.

I have a friend who moved from Germany a few years ago. One night we got talking about it as I was curious about how they were taught about it etc. She said there is immense shame around it, and they are taught about it because it must never happen again.

Perhaps she misheard something you were saying and felt defensive about it? As a person only recently in the UK she might have found that she is asked about it fairly regularly.

I remember meeting Germans on holiday, and some smartarse commenting on Hitler and the German people. They were frustrated by attack. It's really uncalled for, and not fair that all of Germany has been painted in such a terrible light.

I'm not really sure what was so offensive about what she said. Do you like being offended?

I have known many Germans. I lived there. From the Germans that I met I found that they are suffering communal guilt over the holocaust. Something that in their lives they had nothing to do with. I think they should be forgiven. It’s a very difficult burden and unfair. It is actually the opposite of forgetting what happened.

You do, I know a few people who have a very deep hatred for Germans.

however, Germany have been good at reparations and decent at reconciling and admitting its atrocities. It’s acknowledge that collective guilt and trauma is a real thing in Germany. Great Britain hasn’t done this.

i have a South African friend who offered the perspective that the world is overly obsessed with the holocaust because the victims are white Europeans, whilst many other genocides have been committed since around the world that have been ignored or forgotten .

Whilst I see his point I am a big believer in never forget too.

I probably would’ve ignored the German person at dinner

I live in Germany and I think there are two different "forgetting" meant. One is that Germans are a couple of generations from the people who did anything in WW2, so they should be allowed to move on. The other is forgetting what was done to the Jews (but also gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals and other members of society). AFAIK the Germans are very protective of Jewish interests and come down hard on threats against them. After October 7th immigrants were told in no uncertain terms that should they take part in an pro Palestine protest their applications for citizenship/residence would be delayed or even denied. As a result I don't think we ever had a pro Palestine protest. Though I cannot be sure that it didn't happen later, nor am I claiming that there is no anti Jewish feeling. The Jewish cemetery is no longer open to the public because tombstones were graffitied. So I think she meant that Germans have tried to rehabilitate themselves and should be judged on their present rather than their past.

You do from a large section of the population! A significant number of football fans objected to a German being made manager of the England team.

They should be ‘forgiven’ for something that they, in current Germany, had nothing to do with and are no more guilty than you or I.

The world should remember and learn not to make the same mistakes. Sadly the same evil is still happening today.

Remembering is definitely needed. Just not blaming people that did not do it and may have fought against it.

What is all too clear is that what happened in Germany in the early 20C could only too easily happen anywhere else, including in the UK. It depends what the host meant by “move on”. It’s ridiculous to expect all Germans to bear some moral burden for what happened before they, or even their parents, were born.

I agree. It can definitely happen again. It is happening again.

Well we can't forget can we because Israel are repeating history as we speak because they use the holocaust to commit genocide themselves.
We can't forget.

I think you've probably missed what was going on. I think (although I don't KNOW of course) that she might have been talking about how Germany has taken the Israeli government's side in the Gaza conflict and that is not as a result of a rational evaluation of what is going on, but of guilt for what Germany did in the past. So, what she might mean is that it's time for Germany to defend the oppressed rather than the oppressor in Gaza.

She didn't say to 'forget' about the Holocaust, did she? I presume she meant to stop letting it colour how they approach international relations today.

I lost members of my family in the concentration camps. I’m well aware what happened in them. I am not uncomfortable talking about the Holocaust because we talked about it all the time when I was growing up at home and in Saturday school at the synagogue.

Part of remembering the Holocaust is not being afraid to talk about the Holocaust. If it becomes a forbidden topic, that is when the forgetting will start. Your discomfort might be linked to you forgetting the Holocaust was a genocide, not a “massacre” as you have minimised it down to. Dismissing is refusing to talk about it imho, because it makes you “uncomfortable.”

A conversation about moving on from expecting today’s Germans to feel guilt is a conversation worth having imho. Talking about the Holocaust keeps the memory alive.

OP, you need to clarify how the Holocaust came up.
All we have is "naturally we were talking about Germany" and then the German woman jumping down your throat.

That's awful and I think the UK is worse for that than some other countries because of the constant War films.

She just started talking about it spontaneously? Or was basil fawlty-itis having an affect on someone?
Of course it sounds put of order, but the only thing to do would be to assertively state your opinion at the time. Say the reason why you don't agree. Not in a rude way. You could've had a healthy debate on it. But the time has passed now. I can see why you might not like what she said. It's sounds crass.

I think I'd want to know what she meant by 'move on'? 'Move on' as in 'forget about'?

Seems like a lot of people are defending the woman or assuming that you must have said something to make her bring up the holocaust. Bizarre.