To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

Adding my voice to the “men can never become women, penis or no penis” point of view.

But I am also here to say, PLEASE don't take up the newly minted euphemism “bottom surgery”.
Please call it what it is: penectomy and orchidectomy, followed by labiaplasty.

I think that it is important not to gloss over the processes involved in these procedures. They are brutal.
“Bottom surgery” makes it sound so simple, so easy, so little of the big deal that it is.
(Likewise “top surgery”, but that’s for another thread)

I think it is important because it is indicative of the dysmorphia or the obsessive paraphilias that these individuals have, rather than stepping towards normalising it by renaming it something more innocuous.

There was a specific wing opened in the Downview prison. It was deemed as transphobic to house males with transgender identities there and therefore not used for purpose after it was opened.

The male people who would have been housed there complained I believe.

Question for you OP.

Should a man who has had his penis amputated due to cancer suffer the further indignity of being placed in a female prison or hospital ward?

Because by your logic he is no longer a real man.

there are many vulnerable men who would not be safe in a hard core men's prision. Gay men. Smaller men. General normal "bloke in the office" types. Old men. Disabled etc,

But thats just means you need to provide better male prisons and lock up more securely the most violent ones. Not put some with women.

I asked my dad - 77 - about this and first he was "why would men pretend to be a woman to go to a women's jail" and reminded him - how would HE like to be in a male prision? well he would not - constant risk of violence and rape. But if there was an "easy" way to get into a women's prison - aka a safer place - then wouldn't most rational men try that method if they could.

A woman isn't a penisless man.

Which is precisely zero amount of female.

Well ..ask yourself if you would be willing to share your cell with one of these men ...I don't think many women would want to

Why not put these men in with massive rapey blokes then? They've committed crimes to be in prison. Or is it just women you think should be punished?

I do think special consideration is needed for these cases, and (although it's statistically a much smaller population) for post-op "FTM" prisoners. However, including certain individuals in the opposite sex category can't work. Even if we all agreed that it is "the best" way to handle it of the choices that are available or that we can reasonably imagine (and I don't think it is, for many reasons already stated on this thread) how could it be legislated?

In the UK, everyone is expected to have a legal sex and it is either male or female, the law currently does not allow for any exceptions. When it comes to the prison system, there is an incentive for (most) male people to opt out of male-only facilities - not necessarily because female-only are objectively better, but because being male offers a significant advantage in this environment - which is why women fought for and gained the right to sex segregated facilities in the first place. If we put any male person in any previously women-only prison environment, we are then discriminating against all of the other males who might want to go there. (Potentially, we could possibly legislate to say that some specific legal criteria - for example, having a Gender Recognition certificate - de jure "changes" sex, so Prisoner #123456789 is now "female", but in addition to all of the reasons why this would still be unfair to women prisoners, it also does not and legally cannot correspond to having had any particular surgery.)

Of course, no one's life or health should be in danger while they're serving a prison sentence. If ANY prisons are excessively unpleasant or dangerous - constituting cruel and unusual punishment, for example - then those facilities should be immediately investigated and overhauled, for the sake of all prisoners. Even a human being rightfully convicted of a heinous crime still has human rights. But that isn't and shouldn't be a specifically post-op-trans-"MTF" problem. Solve the root problem, for everyone.

This is true. All those euphemisms hide the brutality of the surgeries.

I always refer to them as extreme body modifications but even that does not describe the brutality.

Even facial 'feminisation' surgery. Which involves peeling the skin off the face completely, shaving down bones, attaching implants if needed and sewing the face back on.

And testosterone hormones are brutal to female bodies. Absolutely fucking brutal.

Yet, all this is hidden behind the very innocuous term of 'Gender Affirming Care'. Or GAC even. And it is celebrated by some.

God you really have zero understanding of the female prison population do you?

The stark reality is that in Scotland, the SPS's runs a policy of self id. Males can self id into the female prison estate, no surgery necessary. It was only last year that they (reluctantly) stopped placing violent male sex offenders in the female prison estate. Violent male offenders are still allowed though.

As an aside, 80% of Scottish female prisoners have previously suffered a head injury, mostly due to domestic abuse. They are vulnerable women. The whole 'well, they're in prison so should be fair game for violence and sexual assault from men' argument is vomit inducing.

Like the trans sporting categories that fail to launch every time they're tried they don't want to be in spaces with other men who are trans identified because they all know that the other men like them are not women.

It's never about the 'spaces' as such it's about those spaces having women in them. No access to women then no point seems to be the prevailing view.

There a few enough prisons places available as it is with out complications like additional wings/ prisons for transgender and potentially dozens of other gender identities.

“Bottom Surgery” ???

The op might. Many women have been so radicalised to fight against their best interests, collecting kindness badges along the way, that they would entirely jeopardise their wellbeing to showcase their fealty to men.

This! I read an article a few years back on the subject of male castration and its possible merits for perpetrators of sexual assault. So many comments from people to say they’d been sexually assaulted in a way that didn’t involve a penis, including a woman who’d been abused for many years by her grandfather who was a quadriplegic. There’s as much a mental as there is a physical element of sexual gratification for these men and penis or not I don’t believe and because it this I don’t think men should be in a women’s prison.

I think it's all been covered but just to add another No.

Men of all classes, including men who have chosen to have specific surgeries belong in a men's prison.

It's really not difficult.

Sorry, yes. I agree completely with your main point

It's not just about penis. It's about them being physically stronger, taller more intimidating. Stronger and larger hands. Even down to male socialisation they can be intimidating for women.

You also don't need a penis to watch/voyerism. You don't need a penis to enjoy violating female boundaries.

Even without a penis they are biologically male. Women if faith will be unable to share spaces with them.

Women are not support humans. We are not required to budge over because a special type of male feels unsafe in the male prison. What about our feeling of safety? Why is that less important?

Prison is even more important that our rights are protected. You don't get your own room typically. There are communal showers and open toilets. You cannot opt out of prison like you can with a gym changing room or hold on till you are home to use the toilet.

Women in prison have much higher proportion of those sufferers of DV violent lives, childhood abuse, abuse as adults. They are much more likely to be sensitive and triggered by a man in their space. They are there for rehabilitation not to be further traumatised. They all deserve safety and respect. We could all potentially end up in prison, an accident while driving, a miscarriage of justice (just look at the post office scandal), protecting their children. The world is not a perfect place and those in prison are not lesser people

Yes this. Plus you can raped by other things, not just a penis.

I have come across this poster before. They actually don't care. They actually think that they are righteous in their opinions on this topic because to them criminals should be treated abhorrently as a disincentive to commit the crimes. It is archaic thinking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66676737

Here is a transwoman prisoner who, by his own account, castrated himself in prison.

His past crimes include kidnap, torture, and attempted murder.

He was last arrested for calling for people to 'punch a terf'.

He does not belong in a woman's prison.

If transwomen who has had surgery can choose a women’s prison then it opens the doors for every man to ask for a place in a woman’s prison. The baby faced would claim to be at risk from pedos, the good looking men would be at risk from rapists, the disabled would be at risk from the violent, gay men would be at risk from homophobes, people of colour would be at risk from the racists…

Trans wings in male prisons is the only acceptable solution that keeps transwomen and women safe but I suspect that other groups would want dedicated wings too eg wings for Nazis

Sarah Jane Baker is a perfect example of why castrated men don't belong in women's prisons. Or any women's spaces. And also illustrates how someone can be vulnerable, and this doesn't mean they are harmless.