To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

@Bex5490 surely then those men could be kept safe from men on a segregated wing of male prisons, just as other vulnerable prisoners are? Women should not have to make accommodations simply because men can't.

An alarming number of these transgender prisoners transition either after their arrest or during trial/after sentencing . It would be foolish to think of them as any kind of vulnerable woman simply trapped in a male body.

What about a young, vulnerable, feminine looking gay man?
What about an elderly man who is a wheelchair user?
What about a very shy young man who has a learning disability?

Can you imagine what their lives are like in a male prison? Do you think all male prison inmates are sexually voracious predators and if so, why shouldn't the authorities be doing something about that for the benefit of all men in prison?

They should be kept safe in the wing of a men’s prison, not women’s. Women in a vulnerable situation should not be a safety net for a man.

Why is that womens problem to solve? It's a man made problem and one they can solve without putting women in danger. We don't exist to male men's lives easier.

It’s not “because of their penis” it’s because of the male levels of aggression and entitlement that their male hormones and socialisation have given them, and the damage that their male strength enables them to do with that aggression and entitlement. None of which are materially reduced by an adult taking hormones or having surgery.

This this this thiiiiiiisssssss with bells on.

Born male, ALWAYS male.

I’m all in favour of men, whatever surgery they’ve had, being kept safe. I’m just not in favour of them being grouped with women in order to do that.

Absolutely not. Once a man always a man, regardless of any modifications.

Do you also think rape is about sex?

Because you are still focussing on the man, how he feels, what he wants.

Try shifting your focus to the women in prison. How would they feel? What would they prefer? Bear in mind most women in prison are vulnerable and have a history of dv. Many will easily be retraumatised by males.

Some women who are ex prisoners have spoken movingly about how it felt to be forced to shower alongside male prisoners claiming a 'trans' identity.

However can you imagine a trans woman who appears feminine and has had top and bottom surgery being placed in a man's prison?

Yes of course. They'd either be housed in a specific trans-wing, or a wing with other vulnerable prisoners (paedophiles, police officers, gay men etc) who'd be at risk in the general prison population.

As for the safety of males who identify as trans, there is a simple solution, as always.

https://kpssinfo.org/the-transgender-unit-e-wing/

Only women should be in a women’s prison.

You think it’s acceptable for women to be at risk of having a prison fight with a man?

I think people should be jailed in the prison that reflects their biological sex. The one assigned to them at birth.

My husband is a trans man, he knows he would be sent to a woman’s jail if he broke the law. He knows that biologically he is female. So he doesn’t break the law. Problem solved.

(That’s not the only reason to not break the law of course but an extra incentive I guess)

No - if you are born a man, as in male, with a penis - then you are a man whether or not you choose to have it removed for whatever reason - you cannot ever, EVER change this, its not possible.

Same for women, born with a vulva, then you are a female, whether or not you choose to have a penis attached to it for whatever reason.

This.

Why is it so hard to understand that chopping off your nob does not make you a woman. 🙄

Feeling don’t trump facts.

The data on criminality after genital surgery show the crime rates go with birth sex, not state of genitals, so YABVVU.

So, if any female person in prison can correctly identify a male person's sex, ie. they understand that the person they are in prison with is a male person, do you believe that they should have the right to be free of the distress of knowing that they are locked in a prison with a male person?

Why do you think that male people cannot cause distress to a vulnerable female person just because they might not be able to sexually penetrate someone?

Maybe it will help if you posted what you think really changes in a male person who has gone through ' a real process of transition'?

There are already options for keeping vulnerable male people safe in the male prisons. Why should this group of male people be treated any differently?

@ditalini I agree - there are lots of men who may be more vulnerable in a male prison (gay men, men with learning difficulties, ex police officers maybe). The answer to them potentially not being safe in a male prison is not to chuck them all in the women's prison and think the problem is solved because the men are no longer at risk. So why would that be the solution to trans women not being safe in male prisons?

My uncle George is a lovely man and no threat to man nor beast. However, I still wouldn’t want to get undressed in front of him, share a bedroom with him or get showered alongside him. It’s about privacy and dignity for both sexes - not just safety.

And it’s worth bearing in mind that the majority of women in prison will have been victims of male aggression and may well be intimidated and upset by male persons in their spaces from whom they can’t escape - their perceptions and views and wellbeing should at least carry equal weight to that of the male prisoner.

There are solutions to this:

A trans wing in the male prison estate. The male prison estate is well versed in protective wings/areas for certain prisoners.

Don't commit a crime that will result in being sent to prison.

No it should not be on a case by case basis, what about other vulnerable males within the male prison estate, should they be moved into the female prison estate too?

Consider also that the overwhelming majority of trans prisoners who deem themselves women are in prison for sex offences and the victims of their crimes are women and children.

For those saying that chopping off your penis doesn’t make you a woman - as I’ve said…I agree!

I just feel as though the badly dressed men who wake up one morning and decide to throw on a wig and call themselves women have made life harder for some who really believe they were born in the wrong body and have gone to the extent of surgery to change that.

But I definitely agree with a Trans wing of a prison

No. Because they are still a man. A penis does not make a man. A woman is not a man without a penis.