To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

Men who have ‘bottom surgery’ are very ill. Women aren’t objects to be used to validate a dangerous delusion, especially women as vulnerable as those in prison.

Then they can have their own wing in a male prison

They've been through puberty

They don't belong with women

Exactly this. 100%. Forever, over and over, and over. Until everyone understands and agrees.

Rape is not the only threat that women face from being housed in intimate situations with men. Lop of your todger if you wish but you are still male and I have the right not to be alone with you, that doesn't change because I am in prison. The punishment is the deprivation of liberty, not the increased risk of sexual assault or violence.

It makes lots of odds

It normalises something that shouldn't be normal

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

No, because there more to being a man than a penis.

I’d agree with this. I don’t see why they can’t have a dedicated wing within a male prison. They manage it with other vulnerable prisoners so why not trans prisoners?

Maybe this review will be helpful for the OP and others.

https://academic.oup.com/bjc/article/62/4/1000/6370239

‘She Was Just Like A Lassie’: Analysing The Views of Cis-Women In Custody About Their Experiences of Living With Transgender Women In The Scottish Prison Estate'

Matthew Maycock 14 September 2021

It also details the impact of male people who were not in prison for sex crimes on female prisoners. Including how some changed their sex back to male upon leaving.

To me, this also starts to unravel the 'wrong body' belief that people have.

A tiny number of transwomen have had bottom surgery. It's expensive, painful and has a poor success rate and huge risk of permanent problems. The chances of someone in the prison population having had that surgery is vanishingly small. Men ,however they present, belong in male prisons

If you declawed a lion would it be safe to put it in the same enclosure as zebras? Theres a reason why prisons are separated by sex, it’s more than cosmetic surgery.

He's a very mentally unwell man, that has self harmed in my opinion. If he can't share mens spaces because of what he is, why put him in women's spaces.

I don't want to see that any more than men don't want to see it. It's disgusting. Have you ever seen the aftermath of these surgeries 🤢

YABU. Just because someone has mutilated themselves, it doesn't make them a woman. Womens' prisons should be for women only. Not men who say they are women or believe they were born in the wrong body. And the threat of rape is not the only thing women have to fear from men. The average man is physically stronger than the average female. Men without a penis are still capable of overpowering, abusing, physically assaulting, mentally abusing etc., etc., a woman.

How many trans people, who have undergone surgery, are in prison!? I’m guessing very very few. So in my mind, it’s a non-issue.

Yes if they’re in male prisons they are vulnerable, but aren’t gay men, effeminate men, those with learning disabilities, those with physical disabilities, the list goes on.

Sometimes when we fall within a minority group, we have to accept that we will have some consequences. It’s the same with everything, you can’t always cater for everyone.

I agree, a wing for vulnerable inmates would be best.

FWIW - I have limited empathy for law breakers.

OP my answer is no. You can't be "categorised" as a woman.You are born either male or female, so you are one or you're not. It won't matter what body parts get cut off or fake ones stuck on, you do not change sex, it's in your DNA and you remain the same sex you were born from cradle to grave.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Trans women are housed with the other vulnerable prisioners and largely ignored in the prison my family member works at. They aren’t at higher risk of rape than other men as most rapists rape women or children.

A rapist that targets men is a threat to all of the men on there.

I agree with you. Someone who has gone so far down the line as to have had penis removal surgery will not look like a castrated man, they will look like a (proabably rather tall and masculine looking) woman. You don't just get major surgery like that on a whim. They will be a woman in every way except for biologically. And will have been living as a woman for years. No, they're not an actual woman, of course. But for all intents and purposes, they are.

But this is a tiny percentage of the population. And the percentage of the population who will go to prison in their lifetime is also small. The chances of a person having had penis removal surgery and ending up in prison are miniscule.

They will be a woman in every way except for biologically.

This is just nonsense. Women are not a set of stereotypes. The ONLY way to be a woman is being born female and surviving to adulthood @miniaturepixieonacid

They cannot be a woman "in every way except for biologically". Biologically is the only way to be a woman.

That would be a no. They can go to a prison that accommodates their biology, not their feelings.

No! You don't get it.

Its not just about safety. Its about dignity and privacy. Away from the male gaze. A space for women to be with each other. A de-nutted male dog is still a male dog. Same with humans. A de-cocked male doesn't lose his maleness or his predatory behaviour. And women recognise a male, and feel less safe, and less able to be free and frank.

Plus if he's a post-pubertal male and built like a brick shithouse, females will still be in fear.

Its really not just about penis.

Prisons are segregated according to sex (or they should be) and female prisoners are locked up with other female prisoners. It should not be up to you, or any other person to decide that it OK to lock them up with a male.

It’s not your right to give away
it’s not you (probably) that will be put in more danger, even if no penis come into play.
Sexual assault does not need a penis.
Men are stronger (as a rule) than women.

The inmates of a female prison are more likely to have suffered sexual abuse. Give them a break!

As far as the transwomen is concerned, men need to accommodate them and accept that this person has decided to surgically change their body and possibly present themselves differently. They are still male and need to be in the male estate. It is men that need to change. It might be that transwomen should be held together in a trans wing of a male prison - but never a female one.

If you really believe you are in the wrong body because you identify as a six year old, should you be allowed to join year 1 at the local primary? If you really believe it and have gone to the extent of leaving your wife and children to live as a six year old?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html

If not, what's the difference between really believing you're the opposite sex than you are and really believing you're a different age than you are?

Prisoners are not placed according to what they believe they are, but what they actually are.

What spectacularly stupid post.

OP. How do you believe someone is born in the wrong body?

Which other group of people have been 'born in the wrong body'? This has become another euphemism used that hides the reality.

No person can ever be born in the 'wrong body'. They may feel that they are not happy with how their body looks or works, but it is not the 'wrong body' for them. It is merely their body.

Genuinely, have you tried to analyse this?

I posted this before, but maybe it will help you think about this concept that you have that a person can be in the 'wrong body'. They associate being a 'girl or woman' with their feelings that they are not a 'boy or man'. That is all it is.

It comes down to their own philosophical belief that what they are feeling is that they are not the 'sex' they materially are. This can be for many reasons.

But can you tell us why this belief should be affirmed and any other identity belief that is not based on material reality is not affirmed by society?

___

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acing as they believe a 'woman' should act.

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.