To think that if a man has had bottom surgery they should be put in a woman’s prison?

[Bex5490]

Genuinely interested in this and not trying to goad just want to understand.

When people talk of the threat of a man in women’s spaces, I assume the danger is because of their penis.

So if that’s gone then should they be categorised as a woman?

I’m kind of of the opinion that if you’re willing to put that much effort in (as in penis removal) regardless of your chromosomes, I’m happy for you to be called a woman…is this wrong?

I'm on the fence over this. I can see the threat of rape is removed. But they still aren't women.

What part of being male has changed when a male person has their penis removed.

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?
The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

So, why then should any male person be placed in a space that is meant to protect female people just because they don't have a penis anymore?

No. Because women prisoners have the right to privacy, dignity and safety, just like all women do. And that is why we have single sex spaces.

Makes no odds what plastic surgery a man has. He remains male, and always will.

What is the difference OP between a male person who has no penis who believes they are female and a male person who has has no penis who believes they are male?

Should a male person who has lost their penis due to injury or disease be also placed in a female prison?

Has a male person who has lost their penis due to injury or disease lost the ability to sexually abuse, harass and assault physically or mentally?

And why do female people locked in prison have no consideration for having privacy from someone who is a male person?

Or, is there a belief that having a penis removed somehow means that a female person will not be able to accurately identify the sex of a male person?

Removal of his penis doesn't make any man a woman. Nor does gender reassignment surgery affect male patterns of criminality or aggression. The threat is not solely from the fact these men have a penis, ergo removing it does not remove the danger.

Aside from that, women in prisons are disproportionately affected by histories of sexual abuse and trauma. They are some of the most vulnerable members of society as a group. They deserve the safety and dignity of female only prisons.

Showering in front of a man who has had his penis chopped off is still showering in front of a man. It's a gross violation of these women to subject them to that.

Nope. Don't be ridiculous. They are a danger to women because they're men. A man who has his penis cut off doesn't turn into a woman. "Effort"? Or so mentally unwell that they'll have themselves mutilated? I'm sorry for those who suffer from dysphoria to that extent and who feel like the removal of their penis will help, but they are still men and have no place in women's prisons or any other women's spaces.

I agree lack of a penis doesn’t make a man a woman. But I have 2 friends both many years post op and once I’d got over the shock that they’d committed a criminal act, I’d be gutted for them if they were sent to a male prison.

It’s a unresolvable tension in my thinking but ultimately my personal feelings for them as individuals would override what is right for women as a class. That is how I feel

Absofuckinglutely not.
A mutilated man is still a man.

Nope. A man with his penis chopped and the skin turned inside out, does not a woman make.

Why? They are still male.

I agree with your first point. However can you imagine a trans woman who appears feminine and has had top and bottom surgery being placed in a man's prison? There's no solution to this. Maybe it should be on a case by case basis.

Do you really think that being a woman is about the amount of effort you put in? Being female isn't a piece of performance art.

A male who chooses to have his penis amputated is still a male. Every cell in his body is male, he has gone through male puberty, will have male sexual urges, will be bigger and stronger than females. The offences committed will be male pattern offences. He belongs in a male prison.

This is what I think.

I don’t think you can change your sex just like you can’t change your race.

But I don’t think that just because someone is technically male (whether stronger or faster etc) they are a threat to women.

Trust me, I have had my own experiences of abusive men so I am not minimising the safety of women, but I feel that those who have gone through a real process of transition should be kept safe from men too.

Just my opinion.

You seem to want to water down the definition of women in order to appease men. I'd ask why? Do you believe that women are not worthy of their own descriptive words and spaces free from any and all males? Are we second class?

I’m one of those women that mumsnet in general hate, because I have no issue with calling a trans woman, a woman.
Wrt prisons, I think the only real answer is trans wings because there is so much transphobia/ trans concern that I don’t think integrated prisons could work.

Genitals do not maketh the woman.

It's an interesting question for sure.

I would imagine a trans woman who has had surgery would be at high risk in a man's prison...but I also don't believe they are now a biological woman. I think in these instances, there should perhaps be a separate transgender wing.

I do think it's a slightly more complicated issue than a man who presents as a man simply claiming he's transgender in order to be put in a woman's prison.

A male has committed a crime that has been deemed serious enough to require incarceration as punishment and/or to keep them out of the general population.

Besides having cut off their penis, what is it about them that would make you think is a good idea to lock them in a small room with a/several females and force female staff members to be required to perform intimate searches or personal care on them?

Where is the line? It's ok for a male who has only committed financial crimes to be sent to a female prison, or are sex crimes that didn't include penetrative sex ok, what about if they only committed violent crimes against males not females?

Prisons are (or certainly should be) single sex, not gender.

And they can be, in a ‘trans’ wing of the prison.

How do women benefit from this proposal?

What’s interesting is I reckon 10 years ago there would have been a lot more sympathy for @Bex5490 ‘s view, I suspect I would have agreed, but after years of verbal and physical abuse of women and disgusting overreach by perverts and cross dressers women are saying “no” and drawing a clear line.

Of the male prison.

There is nothing specifically dangerous about a penis, it doesn't contain the essence of male, and chopping it off doesn't magically render a man a woman. Sorry to disillusion you.

The things that make males more of a danger to women are related to puberty (which can't be undone by chopping a penis off) and socialization (which also can't be undone by chopping a penis off).

They aren't technically male, they are biologically male. And belong in the male estate, of course.

You do realise that less than 5% have bottom surgery? However you mutilate your body it doesn't change your sex.