Reform and abortion

[Craftymam]

Just a public service announcement as I missed this last week and find it quite shocking that coverage was so low.

Nigel Farage has said he wants to ‘open a new discussion’ on abortion rights.

Considering everything that’s gone on in America, the rise in popularity of reform and this alleged 100 Million donation from Elon musk; I felt I had to bring this to everyone’s attention.

Let me get this straight @Craftymam has started a debate because they are shocking and disgusted that coverage was so low that a politician had the nerve too suggested a debate could be had on the very subject that is now being debated on MN.

😂

You won’t like what I’m about to tell you about the America pro-life movement then.

….. it’s not at all driven by men.

It's relevant.

We live in a democracy. Laws are passed by politicians who are elected by the people.

I think you would struggle to find many people who would be OK with the termination of a healthy pregnancy at or close to full term. There's a reason for that.

What, are you saying Grandmas, you know - those ones who fought for abortion rights, don't have an investment in their continued success?

@TheLimeHedgehog

Yes I am mentioning it. Because reform is getting a lot of traction right now. I know plenty of people who were saying they were going to vote reform.

I doubt a single one would if they knew about this. So it is a big change.

And no I don't believe this is to do with 22
Weeks. Why would you unsettle such a steady working policy where everyone knows where the boundaries are for the sake of two weeks.

It's not about the 2 weeks.

90% of Britain's support abortion rights, that's going to include a lot of non university educated white men.

Disgusting thing to say. Of course abortion shouldn't be available up to birth, at that point it's just killing a baby. 24 weeks is when babies are viable to be born alive, it's actually a well thought out cut off date and any later is crossing a horrible boundary.

The percentage of cryptic pregnancies is so low that there is zero reason for it to be any later. Unfortunately, if you find out you're pregnant at say 30 weeks, or 35 weeks, you are having a baby. There is an option to give said baby up for adoption if the miniscule amount of ladies with cryptic pregnancies can't or don't want to raise a child.

I almost don't believe you truly think this. Abhorrent thought. Allowing opinions like this to float about unquestioned in threads on such fundamental issues is a problem in itself.

Side note: it might be difficult to hear this for some but women do have responsibility over their reproductive health. That means to avoid getting pregnant if you don't want a baby - if you do get pregnant accidentally, you have the option of abortion. Then your responsibility is getting the abortion before 24 weeks, preferably much before that to save yourself potential trauma, pain, and suffering - you AND the baby.

I'm a big advocate for abortion but the idea that they should be available at any stage, to anyone, with barely any oversight, is negating basic responsibility to a life - a human life - that you have responsibility for once you become pregnant.

Meant to quote a PP and didn’t so my post doesn’t make sense as a standalone.

I don't support abortion, but I know we live in free country so everyone have freedom to choice

You know that us 'older women' fought for abortion rights?

And that we are mothers and grandmothers and want the same options for our daughters and granddaughters?

There's no need to make these changes because so few women choose abortion at 22 or 24 weeks. Nobody will benefit from this change.
If Farage wants fewer late term abortion he should focus on improving access to counselling and abortion services so women are able to make informed decisions and act swiftly.
For who's sake is this proposed change?

Absolutely! He's a shrinking violet who hates the limelight. All his TV appearances must be so difficult for him but he powers on through.

I didn't know about that

Do you think it might be wise to acquire a bit of background knowledge and consider these things before making bold declarations about who gets to have an opinion on abortion rights?

Well, as you can see by my name, I am working class the reason I say that is because I am getting a little bit sick of people falling for this popularism.
The fact is in the last manifesto that reform had the wealthy would’ve been better off by £5000 if it was up to them they wouldn’t even be an NHS because they believe that people should be paying for themselves.
UNFORTUNATELY though just like in America people seem to vote on the basis of hateful rhetoric they want to hurt other people so yes he probably will try to reform abortion if he could which is disgusting but people will vote because they think they’re going to put one over somebody else
Then just like what’s happened now with Maga, they have found out that it’s now come to bite them. Did you know that loads of maga didn’t know that when Donald Trump was talking about Obama care he was actually mentioning about Medicare anyway long story short is he’s now getting rid of it that’s now going to affect the poor and now they are very upset because they didn’t realise that they voted for that that my loves is exactly what will happen over here because people don’t seem to understand stuff

I want to know why Farage has been on Question Time 38 times.

Have you actually followed politics for long and understand how parliament works?

You do understand that if you support a party you don't have to support 100% of that they say or think and that our parliamentary system does not allow one person to put though anything they like without the agreement of a majority of parliament or government scrutiny?

They have to actually vote on these things and have a majority consensus, It sounds as though you would prefer we live in a dictatorship like North Korea with no freedom of speech.

“Abortion up to term” is also part of the right wing playbook… it’s the start of control over timeframes. There are very very few late term abortions, that are done, under strict medical supervision - but importantly it’s not “illegal”

The reason you get women bleeding to death in parking lots, outside hospitals (in other countries) is because Doctors are afraid of contravening the law when it comes to late term (and any term in some situations).

Women should have total bodily autonomy, and that means being able to access an abortion, as and when needed.

I’ve never had one myself, but I would never dream of restricting someone else’s choice.

Abortion restrictions disproportionately impacts poor women - rich ones can get one (they always have been able to)

It makes no sense unless this is a) a funding tactic or b) if he thinks that it will rattle the 'abortion up to term' radicals into the limelight and creates another wedge issue out of it.

Yes is true

I resort to games? You clearly believe that abortion and murder are the same thing. How can you keep a straight face and claim it was a "genuine question". I am not that naive and I don't think you are either.

I also don't think I can change your mind. I am posting here to make reasonable women aware of what they stand to lose, given what has happened in the US and also given the fact that around 1830 women lost a lot of rights they previously enjoyed. Curtailing women's rights is what kicked off the first wave of feminism after all.

Any way, my point is that 200 years of history is repeating itself as we "debate" here.

24 weeks is the limit for choice on an abortion but if you start to debate if that limit for choice should be moved to 22 weeks due to medical advancements, then with time and further advancement you have set precedent to discuss moving the limit to 20 weeks. It risks eroding women’s rights slowly over time, little by little. Once we go backwards, we will struggle to go forwards again because point of viability argument will come up (as seen on this thread) and we’re forcing women to give birth and as one PP said maybe deliver early (and presumably put up for adoption), with the potential development challenges that come with premature labour and trauma challenges related to adoption.

Moving the choice to 22 weeks, for women who need to have an abortion after 24 weeks that becomes an even more charged conversion because the foetus is past the point of viability, even if it has severe life limiting complications. If the point of viability is a cut off for you personally, then fine but don’t take the choice from other women who might not want to make the same decisions.

As others have said though, in the current climate any debate gives the opportunity for rights to be taken away completely and swiftly as seen in the US.

There are many ways to incentivise the native population to have children, stopping or further limiting abortion is a terrible "method".

However, I do believe people are a bit "hands over ears lalala" when it comes to discussing declining birth rates. We do need to be having more children to sustain the population. Simply importing people from elsewhere is a plaster over the real issue.

People feel they can't afford to have children, others have been convinced waiting until you've had an entire career and are past your natural fertility window is an opinion when actually it doesn't always work out, and now you need 2 wages to run a household and women are expected to work just as much as men and can struggle to figure out where having children fits into that.

If the government worked to fix the issues that are leading people to postpone or completely drop out of having and raising children, then we would see an increase in birthrate and we would be sustaining ourselves. I read a stat regarding serious issues arising in about 20-30 years time due to low birth rate. Well now would be a perfect time to incentivise with family orientated policies wouldn't it. I have a feeling the government won't make this a priority though.

It's a complex issue but we can't rely on immigration alone to sustain the population.

Because abortion is form of murder. They killing human being. I aganist abortion, but like I said before everyone have free choice what they gonna do. Is diffrent if the baby gonna be severely sick or deformed and his life gonna be agony or if the mother is risk at death and is diffrent if someone want to abort healthy baby in late stage of pregnancy

It seems deliberately misleading to talk about aborting full term healthy babies, when in reality it doesn’t happen. As far as I’m aware aborting any foetus after 24 rarely involves a healthy baby.

I know of someone who had a late term abortion (over 36 weeks) because the baby had a condition that was not compatible with life, and continuing the pregnancy was putting the mother at serious risk of death. The whole thing was devastating but absolutely necessary.

This is what people are talking about when they say as early as possible and as late as necessary.