"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

[MrBungle]

Is this a reasonable response to the Darlington Nurses issue? (males in female changing spaces)

Wes Streeting requested the Darlington Nurses drafter the guidance.

https://archive.ph/BNTtH (Link to Telegraph article discussing details)

This.

My mum worked in the NHS for 32 years and never required to shower at work. But I don’t agree with TM utilising female showers, less than 10% have had the full transition. Why is it presumed that they should use female facilities? They were born as men and that cannot be changed, why they want to be a woman anyways baffles me. It’s a battle being female, especially if you have gynaecological issues, as my daughter has experienced, we really aren’t at the top of the list of services for this in the NHS. And they’ll never suffer with periods or menopause, so no, I don’t see them as being female, it just isn’t fair.

The answer is either third spaces or well designed mixed sex spaces depending on the setting. A large teaching hospital will have scope for having a third space but it also will more likely be needed whereas a smaller organisation with only a handful of staff may be better to have secure door shower/changing spaces off a mixed sex space. There cannot be a one sized fits all solution element within the nhs.

What number would be acceptable? In my mind 1 is too many. That's why we have single sex spaces. So it doesn't happen at all.

Turn them all into changing villages the same as many leisure centres. Only ensure floor to ceiling closure. Same with the showers and toilets with a seperated male urinal for stand up urinater's aka normal men. Take the thrill away from trying to get into a woman only space from certain trans groups.

That's not great for anyone with certain conditions and disabilities which put them at risk of collapsing.

Floor to ceilings are not the solution.

We are talking about workplace changing. If collapsing was a concern, there are any number of places a person could collapse unnoticed during a working day. Most toilets serving the public & staff in hospitals have complete closure.

Biological men in women only spaces - that’s not right. If it’s the thing now then I’m happy to take my older fatty self into the men’s area - more space, no men in dresses.

But I don’t agree with TM utilising female showers, [...] They were born as men
Just to clarify, a male-to-female trans person is a transwoman (TW) not a transman.

Apart from the fact that a man doesn't become a woman by removing his penis we then get to the old chestnut the 'genital inspection'. How do we know whether an obviously male person in a dress has a penis or not? How do we police this man is allowed in but that man isn't?
It opens up the 'I'm just as much of a woman as X I just haven't had the surgery yet because I'm saving up/on the waiting list/ have no intention of ever doing so but I'm totally a laydee with my laydee dick'.

Well, there is a list. https://transcrimeuk.com

Yes, but that argument only exists because in trans circles, some people genuinely think they pass for the other sex

when in reality, at the very most, people are just being kid and practicing double think

Nobody actually passes

but the trans community is convinced people do and so therefore the only POSSIBLE way of checking would be looking for dick.

Not just you know, looking at their face.

I use mixed facilities where they are available. Speaking primarily about cubicled toilets and changing facilities, not only I don't mind sharing with men but there is also less of a queue than the queue to get into female-only space.
I am sure plenty of people on here used family changing rooms at a swimming pool without much thought. Our local Lido has mixed showers. They are separate shower cubicles with a little dry area for taking your clothes off. Fully locable and not even remotely an issue.

No males in female spaces full stop. It should never even have been considered an option.

It matters not what said male has done to himself via clothing, presentation, chemically or surgically, or whether they are in possession of a piece of paper which endorses a legal fiction, the line is simple - no males in female only spaces.

Use the facilities provided for your sex, the one you were born which never changes and if that doesn't suit request/campaign for alternative provision. Leave the female provision alone, it is for females.

Yep third space for transmen and fourth for transwomen.

Its all about safety and dignity.

They tried wilth swimming..
https://news.sky.com/story/transgender-world-cup-swimming-races-scrapped-because-no-one-entered-12976203

In reality there’s always been a third space for things.
ie Accessible spaces
Its quite normal, just not so much for trans people particularly.

At least it was offered. If there aren’t any trans people to compete that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be offered every year. Then there’s no reason for trans people to compete in another category and make it unfair for everyone else.

It’s not just crimes though. It’s the privacy of the women that’s important too. There are plenty of lovely men in the world - but I don’t want to share a changing room or toilet with any of them. I don’t care if they’re old, gay, trans, disabled, got a penis, got no penis, got half a penis and no prostate, got long hair, wearing make up, the most lovely man in the whole world, etc. They’re all still men and they shouldn’t be in women’s single sex spaces.

I’m guessing typo last sentence = shouldn’t

🤣🤣 missed it. You updated apologies

Make men's facilities gender neutral.

If we re fighting for equality and the right to womens only spaces I think you’ll find that suggestion is in contravention of equality.
Everyone has rights.
Yes, even men

Single use toilets with sinks inside them is the simple answer. Then none of us have to share.

Seriously, how many people who identify as trans are there? It seems like a huge expense to provide "third space" facilities for a tiny number of people.

How about men use the men's facilities, women use the women's facilities and we just accept that you can't change sex. As we all know.

The description "people with a penis" has arisen because we aren't allowed to say "men" when talking about male people.

Often people will say "people with a penis" when they aren't allowed to say "men" and don't want to say "Transwomen" because transwomen has the word women in it but still means the same thing.

Transsexual surgery involves taking the penis and turning it inside out, so transwomen with a facsimile of a vagina still have their penis it's just been mutilated. They still count as "people with a penis" because they still have the penis.