"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

[MrBungle]

Is this a reasonable response to the Darlington Nurses issue? (males in female changing spaces)

Wes Streeting requested the Darlington Nurses drafter the guidance.

https://archive.ph/BNTtH (Link to Telegraph article discussing details)

We have to stop buying into this by saying Trans women-this is what is muddying the waters.
If we replace transwomen with the correct word-MEN-that everyone but the most simple will see the dangerous idiocy of it.

And your opinion matters more than the women affected because ....?

The term "intersex" is offensive. The accepted term is DSD. And people with DSDs are always either male or female, there is no "in between" or third sex so people with DSDs are perfectly able to use the bathrooms appropriate to their sex.

Aside from that, true DSDs make up a vanishingly small percentage of the population.

A 2018 (I think 2018?) study found that when assaults in bathrooms/changing rooms in sports halls leisure centres were looked at in depth , 90% of the assaults took place in mixed sex/gender neutral facilities rather than the single sex ones. Mixed sex facilities place women and girls at greater risk. There's no escaping that fact.

Oh come on now, don't be ridiculous.

You think that the 5 WOMEN should vacate the WOMEN'S changing rooms and use a manager's office or a toilet (the available alternatives) so that a MAN could use the WOMEN'S facilities instead?

Male entitlement and misogyny - just like the men who demand access to women’s safe spaces because they call themselves Susan

There is no way to police this though. You can't ask people at the door to prove their sex. The only way to guarantee that a female will not be sharing a space with a male is to make everything as individual cubicles.

I'm sure those with better memories than me can give you plenty of examples of times when there have been discussions on the issue without a single female involved -because the token woman slot has been allocated to a tw.

0.018% of the population have a DSD
The claim that it was as common as being a redhead was made by someone who included women with pcos as "intersex"

Sadly Mumsnet has banned us from using accurate (and neutral/non-offensive!) terminology to describe this category of person, so we have to tie ourselves in linguistic knots instead. The most one thing that no transwoman will ever be is a woman!!

Exactly this, if you have or have ever had a penis you do NOT belong in womens spaces.

For those suggesting a third space - the NHS is on its knees financially, it isn't right to spend ££££ on this issue.

Male and female should be sufficient. Men shouldn't be in the female area.

But anyone who's read any of the many threads on this topic on MN will know that third spaces, where they have been provided, do not in fact provide a neat solution. Because this is all about validation for many transwomen.

Urgh.

Women's spaces should be for women only.

However, I do not feel comfortable at all throwing post op Transwomen in with men. Men are a risk to Transwomen too, statistically transwomen are more at risk than women (one source: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/ and there's more if you google).

4 spaces. Men/Women/Transwomen/Transmen.

Or single cubicle everything.

Or say top and bottom surgery is a qualifier (frankly I'd be okay with this, but appreciate many aren't and we should be working towards a solution the majority are happy with - I'm bored of the ridiculous pandering to a minority that shuts down debate.)

When I first visited Aviva Studios in Manchester just after it opened all of the toilets were mixed sex (“all genders” I think they said). I didn’t like it, I don’t want to share toilets with men.

When I went back last month they’d been split into 3 - men’s, women’s and all genders. Generally men went in theirs and women in theirs, I did see one bloke (although I didn’t check how he identified 😂) going into the all genders but I suspect he was off for a dump in peace rather than showing his trans allyship.

Given how woke the arts sector is, I can only imagine either a serious incident or customer complaints forced the change.

That's because it detracts from their belief that transwomen are women.

If they can't use women's spaces, well .... Hence the rage.

FWIW I always use 'mixed' on principle because I don't care and to make it less stigmatised for trans people. I want women's spaces to be separate but am also happy to be an 'ally' through this v small act of solidarity.

Change the signage from "Ladies & Gents" to something like

"Penis-havers & Vagina-havers" 😀😀

I always find it fascinating how there is so much conversation about making spaces inclusive for transgender people, and little to no conversation about making places accessible for those with disabilities. Many toilet facilities in public lack a proper hoist or the necessary equipment for disabled people. Train stations with platform lifts broken, or no lifts at all. Journey have to be meticulously planned.
I really think we need to focus on this first. Or at very least, alongside.

Pink news really isn't a reliable news source. 😂
In fact the NHS trust was totally on the man's side, lecturing the women about the importance of allowing him to indecently expose himself to them if he wished and offering the women a small cupboard space elsewhere, leaving the man in the women's facilities.
Which is why those courageous women are standing up for the rights of women and girls not to be forced to undress in front of random men and are going to court.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24739471.darlington-nurse-spoke-transgender-row-womans-hour/

You think that the 5 WOMEN should vacate the WOMEN'S changing rooms and use a manager's office or a toilet (the available alternatives) so that a MAN could use the WOMEN'S facilities instead?

Yes, he really does.
He thinks he can shove the label 'transphobic' on women with legitimate reasons for needing same sex facilities and that makes it ok to discriminate against them.

Where I used to work we had mixed. In the door to 4 separate cubicles with loo, hand basin, mirror and lockable doors and 1 room with shower and loo and big enough to get showered and changed in complete privacy

Worked fine. No shared space

Gender non-conforming women are welcome in women’s spaces, same as other women.

A third space seems like the obvious solution.
Biological female
Biological male
Mixed. For those who believe biology doesn't matter or don't feel at risk or vulnerable in mixed sex spaces It will be a safe place because all the kind gender identity comes first, biology doesn't matter people will be using it. So no problem. Everyones sorted.

as an intersex individual I reject that notion entirely, relabelling only increases the general confusion to the issue at hand and dismisses the voices of the communities it affects.
Side note - if you think additional mixed spaces to be trans-inclusive would hurt cis-women and girls why would they not be able to use their pre-assigned bathrooms? Being cis is a privilege and we should be striving to make everyone as happy and comfortable in their lives as possible - if that means more bathrooms and changing spaces to make everyone happier I really don’t understand the problem. The concept of transgenderism isn’t new and we as a community should be doing more for less represented communities.

Absolutely
Why not