"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

[MrBungle]

Is this a reasonable response to the Darlington Nurses issue? (males in female changing spaces)

Wes Streeting requested the Darlington Nurses drafter the guidance.

https://archive.ph/BNTtH (Link to Telegraph article discussing details)

Thank you 🙏 And agreed. I shave my head and am often to be found in jeans and a hoodie (football fan). The stewards at the grounds I visit, with almost 100% accuracy, point me to the female steward if they're body searching. People can tell. Almost always 😚

I don't think it helps to build bridges when even the article criticising the extremism comes from a place of manipulation rather than genuine good faith. The reasons to rein in the 'confrontation' in a nutshell are best not make stupid people look stupid, because they don't like it, and bad people don't want to see themselves as bad, so we need to stop telling them that (even though we know it really) There is no acknowledgement at all of the type of comments pp shared, and a lot of justification for the 'anger'. I see no attempt to reach any form of compromise or recognise the rights of others there, just a call for a strategic change of direction. I agree it's probably too late. TRA and MR extremists are too intertwined now and it's hard to see where one stops and the other starts.

@5128gap two points to note

JKR specifically responded to that article, and very well:

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1863579675877884385

Secondly if you look at the public comments and then the ones that the Journalist responded to, he makes very similar points, ones that really should have been in the article itself

Indeed. When women are abused for using the word 'male person' to describe a male person with a transgender identity (as some of us have all too recently on MN) and someone who declares they are 'moderate' and wants to exclude male people from female single sex spaces, but to allow them in as they are really female, the time has been and gone.

As the saying goes, those male people who fully respect the needs of female people stay out of the female single sex spaces all the time.

Those who don't fully respect the needs of female people will say things that we think is agreement, but continue to use the female single sex spaces anyway. Because they believe they have special privileges.

This is harrowing to read.
Yet we keep being told that ALL trans people ‘just want to be accepted and live their lives’

I’m sure some, maybe even most do and I hope it’s a vocal minority that are guilty of these transgressions. Genuine trans people should be equally horrified by this.

Anyway thank goodness Wes Streeting will put a stop to this in the NHS.

Now hoping Bridget Phillipson will do the same in schools and put a stop to unisex facilities. Too many girls are refusing to drink and missing school during periods etc due to being forced to share toilet facilities in schools with males. It's just not acceptable.

The figures I gave committed by transwomen are only reported sexual crimes where a transwomen was actually charged. (1 for every approx 1000)

The figures I gave for hate crimes were reported hate crimes but are not defined
( although there are legal definitions ) (1 for every approx 7300 men )

The figures identifiy the dangers to women

They certainly do.

Yet, whenever we ask to be linked to the evidence that show that any male person at any stage of transition has a lower risk (as per those crime stats) of committing sex related crimes, no one can seem to answer. In fact they either drop off the thread, or they turn and attack posters for supposedly being hateful for asking the question.

We would not know because the police and press insist on lying in their reports and describing them as female

I agree.
My calculation shows a much higher risk
Seven times in fact
And as noted these crimes by trans women are sexual crimes as well, they do not include physical violence or threatening behaviour whereas the crimes against the trans community do. If we factored those in as well the stats would show a much higher figure.
There are none reported though in any stats ( that I could find ) which is telling in itself
Id also love to know why websites telling people what terrible things to do to terfs ( their word not mine ) hasn’t been taken down. That is a hate crime in itself, surely!

No women anywhere in the world campaigned for men to share changing rooms, showers, toilets or hospital wards - or anywhere where we undress.
This is a totally male led movement that women and girls offer up our undressed / vulnerable bodies in order to validate sad men, mentally unwell men or predatory men.

It effectively decriminalises indecent exposure / flashing which we know is a gateway crime to even more serious sex offences.

The tragedy of all this is that unthinking women and men, alongside the most vocal predatory men, are pushing for this despite all the evidence about sexual violence committed against women and girls.

Exactly the likes of Gregg Wallis et all ie a non transwoman are vilified for inappropriate behaviour
yet
A transwoman isn’t. They can undress in front of women and we have to accept that

I think quite a lot of actual women have campaigned for it….

It's stark isn't it? The furious public criticism of a man for repeated crude inappropriate comments made to women while some of the same people (looking at you Kirstie Allsopp) arguing for the right of random men to watch women & girls undressing, showering etc (voyeurism) and to strip naked themselves (indecent exposure).

How has society become so stupid?

I agree that women are now stupidly campaigning for this - see my ref to Kirstie Allsopp above - a privileged wealthy woman who is unlikely to face to indignity of the local swimming pool changing room, the prison cell, the public toilets on a dark night etc.
But I don't believe the initial demands were ever voiced by women. They came from the powerful middle aged male dominated trans pressure groups - and society immediately capitulated, demanding that women were to be kind and undress for these men.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry ……both probably

Yes. You are correct. The statistics do say this and they are very easy to find. And I am sure you are aware, it is the crime statistics and pattern that shape safeguarding risk assessments. Hence why feminists discuss these statistics and safeguarding risk.

So many of these recent decisions defy robust safeguarding principles of female people and children. Because they rely on treating those male people as a special sub group of male people. This is the anti-thesis of robust safeguarding in my opinion. And it completely ignores the current evidence.

If we keep all other male people out, why the fuck do we let a group of them contrary to the evidence we have?

But this doesn't fit many people's need to be kind and been seen as being 'kind'.

And as I said upthread, that is even considering that those hate crimes may include misgenderings and stickering. I remember there was discussion on that.

Certainly non crime hate incidents do record those 'crimes'.

There is little symmetry.

These women like Kirsty Alsopp and celebs like whatever that person who played Hermoine Granger is called say they want it because they are worried they won’t get any work in the future.

JK Rowling doesn’t give a toss about what these idiots think.
She and most women fight to keep our hard earned rights and if some people don’t understand the difference between trans rights and womens rights then that’s on them.

The biological male in question is a transwomen not a transman who are biologically female

@NordicwithTeen because they are trying to make a point by giving the women less space
All they are doing is being nasty little bullies

You are assuming bullies follow a path of logical thought Nordic

Even if there are true hate crimes it still doesn't justify putting women at risk by allowing men into their spaces. A transwoman (man) has a choice to dress in a feminine way and present that way. If they feel at risk, then dress in a gender neutral manner so as not to draw attention when using the correct loo. Do not expect actual women to put themselves at risk because of a man's choices when women do not have the choice to not be the more physically vulnerable sex.

As a woman I wear trousers and jumpers all the time, why on earth are the "poor, terribly vulnerable and fearful" TW unable to select different clothing rather than risking the safety women against their will. The level of selfish & entitlement is mindboggling. The activists crying that they need safely through access to women's facilities have no idea what it actually feels like to be a woman or they wouldn't be asking for other people to give up their rights to safety and dignity.

Its a site by terfs ourselves, showing what they say about us. Why would we want our own site taken down?

I had no idea that’s what the site is tbh.
All I do is MN and someone posted images here
I was confused by the title though so now that makes sense.
In which case those posting the hate that’s being outed by women on this site should be prosecuted for a hate crime

Thanks for explaining the purpose of the site !

I see it's time to bring out this handy visual aid to explain why transwomen should never be given entree female spaces

An interesting examination of the article from another thread:

https://hysteretic.substack.com/p/transgender-activists-should-also