"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

[MrBungle]

Is this a reasonable response to the Darlington Nurses issue? (males in female changing spaces)

Wes Streeting requested the Darlington Nurses drafter the guidance.

https://archive.ph/BNTtH (Link to Telegraph article discussing details)

@Sae3005 Having your cock removed doesn't make you less of a male, you still have male height, size and strength.

And as said previously, women and girls spaces are not just for our privacy and dignity away from the male gaze, a male is still a male, neutered or not. Females, rape survivors, DV survivors, all trauma victims need spaces free of males so we can speak freely and feel at ease.

I also haven't heard of transmen threatening murder or suicide en masse if men won't give them what they want.

Call the police. The police can remove them/do a body search.

If this happens enough, transwomen won't dare risk it. The Social Contract will again be in place. FFS, we managed for literally DECADES AND DECADES, until now!

If you are transgender but you have had surgery to change your body parts then yes, you should be allowed to be in the showers as your corresponding gender.

There is zero logic to this position though.

Cutting off body parts doesn't change your sex.

As for what it does to your 'gender' - this is where logical reasoning leaves to room entirely. Aren't there 74 genders? Or 120? So which ones have male appendages and which ones don't?

I think you need to check the definition of ‘hate crime’ . Does it include misgendering someone? Using a slur? Someone putting a sticker up that someone doesn’t like?

Have you also wondered why female people are not protected by a hate crime law that is symmetrical to the protections that people with transgender identities have? The system would be overwhelmed .

You're the third person on this thread to ask that question, and the question is not even original. And is answered over and over and over again on every fucking thread on this topic.

Personally I think it's up to men to decide if they are happy to have 'trans men' in their spaces.

But let's not forget that the power dynamic between men and 'trans men' is totally different to the power dynamic between women and 'transwomen'

Fully agree on both counts, @TheKeatingFive

Quite. Isn't it amazing how for centuries and millennia men and women never had a problem telling men and women apart?

Now all of a sudden we are assured by some that we 'can't tell'. Wtf?! This world has truly regressed. Fuck knows how the world reproduced for centuries, until now, if we can't tell a man from a woman.

Do these people ever stop for one moment, even 30 seconds, to engage their brains before typing and pressing send?

Mixed third space options are the answer.

I went to an art exhibition at a synagogue a while back and found a ladies, a gents and a mixed sex area, all with changing places. Everyone comfortable and accommodated.

For Christmas I'd like all the silly femphobes and misogynists to be quiet for just one day about their obsession with putting males with penis and testicles in the ladies, @Flapjacka .

It is not possible to see if the person has "fully transitioned" though (and imo he is still a man) but even if there was solid data that shows a man that had fully transitioned posed no threat (and there isn't- in fact data points to the fact that men retain the same propensity for male pattern violence regardless of medical transition and they retain the strength of their male body).it is not possible to tell that the fully dressed man in front of you has a penis or not - so women should not be expected to take that chance.

And just what are these 'hate crimes'? No assaults are ever reported in the media - if there were assaults the pro-trans media would be rubbing it in our faces non-stop. As is reported in many places, a female saying 'no' to a male is seen as a 'hate crime'. Some transwomen have reported strange glances as a 'hate crime'.

I'd like to see an actual definition of these hate crimes and what they actually involve, before I believe even ONE has ever taken place, let alone 'thousands'.

”There doesn't seem to be any objections to them accessing male facilities. In fact, they are entirely removed from the trans debate. And it always grates on me because I don't think women who advocate for female spaces being used on the basis of the DNA actually honestly would accept someone who looks male accessing their spaces. So I can only conclude that anti-trans agenda is really largely anti-men agenda. So why not call it what it is...“

What is the ‘anti-trans’ agenda though?

The women and girls who are seeking to prioritise sex based rights being prioritised over gender where sex matters do consider all female people’s needs. In talking to female people with transgender identities we have learned that a small % will use male single sex spaces. However, many we talk with tell us they are fully aware that their presence in a female single sex space may cause distress if they have taken testosterone. They choose to use gender neutral spaces. They will take the steps to plan trips to unfamiliar places to have options.

They also resent being used as political leverage by anyone attempting to force female people to accept male people into female single sex spaces. Those female people continue to be centred in feminist campaigns because they need the benefits of those campaigns. And should rightly benefit from feminist campaigns.

Those female people are certainly not forgotten particularly on mumsnet where so many parents are discussing the needs of their daughters, who might be female people with transgender identities. It is why the accusations of being anti-trans and transphobic don’t really work.

Anti-men? Only if you think that prioritising the needs to give female people equitable access to the same rights and opportunities that male people have is ‘anti-men’.

Yep I think back to the various coming and goings in my student house share and there isn't a single case of 'remember the time Dave brought back the man who turned out to be a woman', or 'what about when Sarah pretended to be straight for a month because the girl she started dating was actually a guy and she was too embarrassed to say anything.'
Given the sheer numbers involved if it was actually even remotely tricky to tell men and women apart there should be at one incident.

Exactly, these figures are not accurate. We need to see what these ‘hate crimes’ constitute. Misgendering someone is considered a hate crime. I however see it as correctly sex-ing someone.

You're looking for a way men can continue to join women and girls in bathrooms, toilets etc and reducing the impact on women enough to make it 'acceptable'.

But since there's no need for men to be in there at all there isn't a problem to fix and no need for ANY impact on women

What I didn't understand with the hospital in this case was why they put the women into the cupboard with a window onto patients to change, leaving the solitary trans man with the big female changing room. Surely this should be a space per usage thing?

Because the male would complain about being "othered" and the NHS as an organisation has been totally captured by trans rights activists. It's necessary to punish the women pour encourager les autres.

The purpose was to punish, intimidate and make an example of women who didn't want to undress in front of a man even if it hurt his delusional self image.

He needed to have the designated female space to uphold the pretence that he is a woman. And the women who changed elsewhere needed to be smeared and not given a designated female space, because that would, again, have made the statement that he can't enter female spaces as he isn't female.

This is incredibly shocking. I'd like to know what all the decent, peaceful transwomen who 'just want to pee' are saying to the people who are posting this in their name. Because any women who are tempted to 'be kind' must surely have pause when they read these comments and realise that opening the door to 'Nat(alie)' who wouldn't hurt a fly, means opening it to these people too. Because this violence is not a reaction to women failing to comply, the lack of compliance merely serves as an excuse for their desire to rape, maim and kill women.
These comments need to be shared widely (thank you for posting) and the 'moderate' TRAs need to get their house in order and address this rather than expend so much energy trying to persuade women their fears are groundless. Because once you've seen this stuff, well, you can't unsee it, can you? If ever a further argument for the protection of single sex spaces for women was needed, here it is.

Moderate TRAs needing to get their house in order is the gist of this article

https://archive.ph/M1dTO

"Transgender Activists Question the Movement’s Confrontational Approach
Facing diminishing public support, some activists say all-or-nothing tactics are not working. “We have to make it OK for someone to change their minds.”"

I don;t think it will work TBH, it's too late, the bridges have been burned and genuine trans people who would not have hurt anyone are the ones who are going to ba harmed and never accommodated now.

The concept is that no male person should be 'outed' or made feel discomfort in the fact that they have a philosophical belief where they can claim to be female people.

This solution is one that has been stated as the only available option by groups such as Stonewall who have been directly involved and influential in writing these policies. Just like if a female patient complains there is a male in their shared hospital room, they are to be told that there is no 'men' in that room and if anyone is to be moved, it is the female person who complained. Never the male person who is in the space that female people expect to be single sex.

This has also been the solution insisted on for other instances as well, that have been changed back to prioritise female people mostly but it has been said about spaces for female children as well in the past.

At all times, the person with the transgender identity should be centred and not excluded from the space.

And of course, we then hear the stories that when that other space has been made available and most of the female people are using it (even if it is inconvenient them - such as female people walking to different buildings to use the space they have been told they can use as their alternative) the male people wish to access that space too. The result in that case is that a sub group of male people have access to all spaces they wish to use, and female people who want single sex spaces with no male people using them get no spaces.

This:

And of course, we then hear the stories that when that other space has been made available and most of the female people are using it (even if it is inconvenient them - such as female people walking to different buildings to use the space they have been told they can use as their alternative) the male people wish to access that space too. The result in that case is that a sub group of male people have access to all spaces they wish to use, and female people who want single sex spaces with no male people using them get no spaces.

My favourite graphical representation of the issue.

Some sense at last!