"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

[MrBungle]

Is this a reasonable response to the Darlington Nurses issue? (males in female changing spaces)

Wes Streeting requested the Darlington Nurses drafter the guidance.

https://archive.ph/BNTtH (Link to Telegraph article discussing details)

NonPlayerCharacter , well they're not having them!

They do have rights. Just not in my bathroom, changing room or on any sport I choose to participate in.

Can't understand this logic.

If you don't feel safe around men or women then who would you be sharing the third space with?

I'll presume the answer is human beings so therefore you'd be sharing the space with men and/or women?

@Catza 1 in 3 of us struggle with our mental health at times though and we are content to use the bathrooms of the sex we are born as though. I don't think being trans is comparable to a disability. I

Mental illness can destroy lives. Being asked to use the bathroom of your birth sex doesn't. How offensive to compare the two things.

Trans men DO push for access to men’s spaces.
Presumably though the men feel less physically threatened by a trans man in their space, than women do with a trans woman. Naturally.

I’d be looking at the percentage of women attacked or abused by men ( which is really fucking high) and safeguarding THEM primarily. Third spaces are the best option.

Its not just about safety. Its about privacy and dignity away from the male gaze. A neutered male is still a male and will never get womens issues or womens talk, so we aren't free to be ourselves/speak freely while they're around.

You've never heard the saying of girls going to the powder room together, have you.

Go to HR over it. Strike. Go to tribunal. The press. You have opens, other than lying down and taking it.

The only voice we ever hear, are trans voices. Never the voices of females. NEVER. So this is a welcome change from the usual femphobic misogyny and the trans-captured media.

@Duebug There is absolutely zero evidence whatsoever that male facilities are not safe for transwomen. No assaults ever reported. Indeed and in fact, transwomen have repeatedly said themselves that they are safe in the male facilities. One transwoman last year posted a video on twitter of them in the male urinals (males in the background).

The whole 'transwomen are not safe in the males' is THE biggest proven LIE going. They are in fact, the safest cohort in the males. Gay men have also said this. So please stop repeating a dangerous lie.

Strange then that we were able to police this for DECADES, until trans became a thing, then, isn't it? Back then the social contract and public shaming of men in womens spaces was enough to work. Added that women were able to scream, call the police for help, and the male would be arrested and charged with Indecent Exposure.

We just need to go back to those days. Which was basically only 10 years ago.

I sometimes wonder how young these people are who ask 'how are you going to police it'. They obviously didn't grow up in society prior to 10 years ago, or in the pre-2000s, or lived under a rock and never ventured into public spaces. Ever. Because its such a stupid fucking question otherwise.

I cannot believe people are coming out with this cr*p still in 2024.

Silly women need to shut up and do what men ask of them. That's your position right? 🫠

I don't get this either

Oh not this bs again! @MyDogIsNonBinary The Williams 'Institute' report was flawed and debunked. That its still being used is hilarious as it was laughed out of the sphere, even they had to make a clarification.

Though common sense should tell one that the suggestion a male in a dress is 'more at risk' than an ACTUAL WOMAN is batshit fucking crazy and ridiculous! It doesn't take the brain of a goldfish to realise that.

I mean, just think about it. Who are more at risk of sexual assault/rape? Males (in or out of dresses)? Or females. FFS. Btw, that 'survey' was self-selected and self-reporting, and included women saying 'no' to men or 'strange looks' as 'harassment' and 'hate'.

Williams clarification is the second image.

It's fine - silly doesn't apply to the intelligent, articulate, witty, well informed women of this board.

The fact that the side of the debate that can't tell the difference between people and palm trees/clown fish regards those understand human biology as 'silly' is, well for want of a better word silly! 😜

I follow a few intersex individuals on twitter. They all prefer the term DSD.

Being 'cis' (as far as I knew that term is banned on mumsnet?) is not a 'privilege'. You are being deeply insulting. Females are the oppressed sex class. Being female is not a 'privilege', @Duebug . As for "less represented", I hope that is tongue in cheek because there is no group as over-represented, as privileged, as powerful or as protected as trans. They are at the very top of the totem pole. Way above 'c1s' males even. Not even gay men had anywhere near the privilege and representation that trans have.

If you look at the arguments being made to shut women up on this issue, they're all the same misogynistic shite that's served the same purpose since year dot. Gendered insults like Karen and terf? Check. (While pretending they don't know who the women are.) And dismissing women's concerns, even after they're proven to be valid over and over, by telling then they're just silly, irrational, insane and, of course, hate men, which is exactly what transphobia means in the current context? Check, check, check.

It's exactly the same misogynistic and really quite unintelligent rhetoric that has been used to silence women over centuries. The only difference is, this time they even expect us not to see that they're constantly proving that they know who the women are.

No.

They are still a male person, they are a male person without a penis or testicles.

There is no evidence that a male at any stage of transition has a risk level lower than any of male in the UK of committing sexual abuse or sex crimes.

My friend’s gym had a gender neutral changing room but the door just led into the women’s changing room. She complained and they did nothing about it. Her husband complained and they changed it back to a second women’s door 🫠

There is more than one way to sexually abuse and harass a female person than using a penis.

And the harm to female people is far wider than just a male using their penis to harm them. Harm also includes a female person having to self exclude because they know a male person uses that space. And yes, it is highly likely that a female person can correctly sex a male person.

Female, male and mixed spaces

any male demanding to be allowed to use female spaces based on a feeling tells you everything you need to know about him, he won’t let go of his male entitlement and there is nothing female about him at all

No its how we talk about MALE people. Not 'trans'. And have you seen the way trans/trans activists talk about women who simply want our basic human rights? Go away and address their violence and how they speak to us as subhuman filth. Don't lecture women. Only 4 out of a collection of around 500 I have:

There are plenty of transmen on SM crying and whining because they are not accepted as gay men, and I have heard of transmen going into gay saunas and getting upset when the men there don't want to interact with them. I haven't heard of any men being attacked or forced to have sex with transmen.

The way people talk about trans people here is disgusting.

What do you mean by this?

Is it telling the truth to them and saying no?

Thats what you think is 'disgusting'?