My town has really changed

[CatbellsOnTheSeashore]

In a confusing and not very pleasant way.

It was gradually changing for the worse before covid, but the pandemic seemed to accelerate it, and I am wondering if anyone else has noticed anything like this.

It became more insular whilst more populated, the population increased quite a bit over the past 5 yrs. More and more dereliction, low council maintenance and an influx of troubled people housed around the town centre, which is now a no-go zone. Areas surrounding have steadily grown worse also, as it seems to be spilling out.

What does feel really different is that there are now lots of groups of men, hanging around drinking or sat on pavements together (not begging). Drugs took over the local nature paths and canal walks so now there are large groups of people out of their heads lying on old sofas at the locks, it's really grim. Women who used to cycle and run in these areas have more or less moved elsewhere or stopped.

More and more standard sized houses in low to middle income areas are becoming HMO's, yet with poor refuse organisation and not enough parking. I'm not exaggerating when I say there are literally trails of dog shit in the streets in many areas, too, which pretty much hangs in the air and the place stinks. That, and skunk.

We live in a decent part of town but it is coming closer, and I only have that perk due to inheriting my parents bungalow. More and more people are moving out.

On a walk to Sainsbury's yesterday two guys were holding onto a sign pole hovering over a bin. As I passed by one of them vomited into the bin and then spat/gobbed an inch from my feet - he didn't notice me particularly, but it was quite sudden or I'd have given them a wide berth.
This isn't unusual now.

I know people usually blame the cost of living and covid, etc, but this was definitely on the rise before. There is far more noise pollution as more buildings go up, usually industrial, and the roads are a nightmare. Infrastructure for actual people is decreasing.
That said, I don't think most of these people were thriving before, so it isn't a sudden change. It is as if a new kind of culture is growing, that doesn't care a damn about anything. Everything is vandalised or shat on. More and more windows are broken in properties close to the town centre, and I doubt most of these people were thriving before the pandemic hit.

Is this bad luck or is anything like it happening elsewhere?
We are definitely looking to move away.

@taxguru interesting. On the programme I heard last week they said that it’s private companies who find accommodation for the people and so they try for the cheapest option while charging the maximum amount to the state that they can. But you’re right, those areas don’t have the resources to support additional people with high levels of need. Why don’t funds come from central government to support asylum seekers?

@AlertCat yep that is what I was saying in my post - people are ending up in many cases in funded residential care because they aren't capable of self contained living anymore but families aren't in a position to help- many older women are working till retirement age and beyond just to keep a roof over their heads and for those needing care that 'do' have homes and money and can self fund they can't just 'give it to family to buy somewhere bigger for them all to move in ' or it's seen as DOA if they then do firmly need residential care- a total minefield

I saw this image doing the rounds earlier. It’s shocking that so much council housing in the capital city, the economic centre, is given to foreigners. But the numbers in the rest of the UK are generally lower, so not directly likely to be responsible for the changing face of UK towns.

@SaltLampFeelsDamp indeed - there are some very specific places that aren't like this - thinking of places like Slough, Bradford, Oldham, parts of Wolverhampton, Leicester , Leeds , London, Luton etc - but it's simply not the case in vast swathes of the country -so it's in most areas a complex societal problem rather than 'purely' an immigration problem which is the agenda certain factions like to push

"
I know people usually blame the cost of living and covid, etc, but this was definitely on the rise before. "

Yes. This is the consequence of shrinking the state. If you leave people to fend for themselves and they have nothing - no assets and no support network - then things like drugs and gang proliferate in that space. Plus awful mental health. All of which leads to the degradation of public space we're seeing.

So many people warned that Osborne's small state economics would lead to this and "big society" was a fiction. But the Tories convinced everyone of the opposite.

The two are inextricably linked. Poverty and lack of opportunity both causes and is a consequence of addiction.

@LostittoBostik yes indeed- Started with Thatchers no such thing as society , only the individual - it's one reason I like the Scandinavian model having lived in Copenhagen and been to Sweden a lot. yes they have some issues too but it's very obvious that it's capitalism with a strong social underpinning- in Copenhagen I saw teams of people in an evening approaching anyone who looked as if they might be on the streets urging them into warm socially developed hostels with staff on hand and food etc - it was a very different ethos - older people accept paying high tax to make sure their offspring have good social housing if needed , cheap childcare so they can work and support and healthcare etc - yes a few might be begrudging but if they went on anything like question time saying as such they would be run rings around by the rest of the audience- in return you are expected to be ordered, work and behave socially responsibly - it's not for everyone- I once read it was like living in a giant Waitrose - and yep I saw what they meant. In fact I like the UK where I think issues are mixed across all kinds of things in Scandinavia I could see that many of their issues were being brought about by too much immigration at some points- however they have made changes with regard to integration etc and it's very tough to get in these days.

Yes this is big problem. Torbay has sold some of its social housing to Birmingham city council. It makes sense to house immigrants near existing immigrant communities to concentrate resources. I think this spreading round is increasing racial tensions. There is just too many to be able to accommodate without this, I’ve noticed increasing about of Devon flags (often accompanied by English flags..

The horse has already bolted in trying to make places like Devon multicultural (people hace seen what’s happened elsewhere) - you have to work incredibly hard to be accepted if you come from north of Taunton. The Celtic areas (and I include Devon, whether or not we made the flag) are proud and defensive of their heritage. I can foresee big issues if this continues.

This is a political issue and largely down to the Conservative government. If your standard of life is so severely reduced, you’re made to feel like a scrounger and a criminal for not being privileged or wealthy, then people become fed up, disillusioned, more likely to take drugs, make poor choices and resent everyone. Social interventions like early years support, education and health and social care were all weakened under the tory government. It’s pretty easy to see the connection.

@Feelingathomenow if you are from that area I do partly see why your views are as they are- we went there a few weeks ago - and yep it was obvious it has been used as a dumping ground for all kinds of people without roots or nowhere to go -compared even to 9 years ago which was the last time I went- for a place with very good bones I must admit I was shocked. I found to be honest the whole coast line like that - the only places we actually liked that we went were Exeter, Topsham and Totnes. I'm not sure how to sort it out though as it's not just an immigration thing from what I could see , it's kind of everything that's wrong- all in an area that should be lovely - and was

Amen to that! MNetters would be forgiven for thinking that I was some kind of idiot, living in Wigan, not from an accident of birth, but actually moving to live here, from choice. And in one of the 'shit-hole' areas too! Of course the town suffers form the same ails as many working-class towns, not just in the North either. But there are new initiatives, house-building continues apace all over the town. I went to the Richard Ashcroft gig at Robins Park, and what a top day out that was. Still haven't got round to checking out the Feast At the Mills, though. My DS is on his way up for a visit right now, only two hours from Euston.

Where would you prefer to live and why?

In a world that values people over money. So here will have to do, as such a place doesn't exist.

Yes it has been used as a dumping ground, for all the people that the liberal left like to harp on about how we should help them, they need somewhere to go, it’s not their fault, the local community should invite them in for tea. Yes it was lovely, but Torbay council are shit/corrupt and will take money from whatever source. - on Victorian/edwardian times Torquay was one of the richest places in the country (as can be seem from its architecture). People are frightened to let their kids walk into town, there’s recently been several stabbing, it’s not uncommon to find druggies shooting up in the street/unconscious. On more than one occasion I’ve called an ambulance for someone catatonic from spice. This is bad enough, every country has to deal with its home grown problems - I still think it would be good to ship these people out to the Home Counties, to the land of do good.

Now Torquay is mixing in the boat people - men who have more often than not come from countries that have appaling attitudes to women. They’re hanging out in the same areas as the druggies (which we think has led to the uptick in previously unheard of knife crime). Women are getting cleared at. Tourists (such as yourself) are put off, businesses are going under.

I’m glad I live inland a bit, a few years ago we would have moved to Torquay in a heartbeat, now I will go to the theatre and a few bars round the harbour, I wouldn’t go up the top of town.

As I said Torquay was once amongst the richest places in the country, even after foreign holidays became the norm, it stayed a bit of a jewel in the crown - now- well. If it can happen there it can happen anywhere,

And it did! I used to live in one of the most desirable areas around Birmingham yet it was taken over by immigrants from Hong Kong, who were fine but didn’t integrate, didn’t involve themselves in the existing community. We simultaneously had lots of 3nd and 3rd generation immigrants mainly from Pakistan. Again no integration and actually quite aggressive. There were a number of incidents especially involving people hitting dogs in the park, others sting round the park in their car close to kids playing.,shops closed and reopened with foods to satisfy the tastes of those who recently arrived in the area. Schools were at bursting with bilge classes of people who struggled to speak English or an attitude they weren’t going to mix with white kids.

Again another nice area, with its community destroyed. It can happen anywhere, and it will - the more people we allow to stay, the more areas will be destroyed. We need to concentrate on dealing with the people here, helping them integrate into society, we do not have resources to deal with other countries problems as well. Communities cannot take it. Telling people they’re racist because they don’t want to see their communities ripped apart when they know they are already on the edge is totally the opposite of the compassion those people profess to be championing. This is why we need to start processing in third countries, no community deserves to have this inflicted on them. We need to send more back to the country of origin. They need to sort their own issues out. We need time and space to sort ours out.

oh and I work in Exeter, this is going the same way after dark, there’s a lot of drunk homeless people. Increasing numbers of immigrants. Like it or not, these issues really are coming to a town near you.

@Feelingathomenow well I can't disagree having been there - I'm liberal in many ways, but not particularly in others - but certainly it was shockingly bad.

Even in Unis, there's lack of integration among the groups who are supposed to be modern and liberal. At my son's Uni, there were entire blocks of campus accommodation which were occupied mostly by a specific ethnicity who kept themselves to themselves, only socialised in the bar for those blocks, didn't join clubs & societies, didn't mix in lectures, etc. In years 2 and 3 when they moved into private accommodation in the city, the same, they chose to live in specific areas of town and again had their own community.

What you saw was the future of the whole of the UK if we allow people to keep arriving, if we don’t concentrate on sorting out the issues around community integration we already have. This is what people in areas that have already been affected are trying to warn about. People who haven’t seen it think it’s bigotry rather than people using their experience to warn others. We have enough issues already here, they might not be on your doorstep (yet) but they are on plenty of people’s doorsteps now. Listen to those people rather than chastise and accuse them of things they are not. Many of those doing the warnings were once liberal, welcoming people, they’ve just learned the lesson before others.

So you're saying there isn't anywhere better.

The BBC's two films on how the UK entered the then EEC and on how the EU works are instructive. I don't know if they are still available.

Even in Unis, there's lack of integration among the groups who are supposed to be modern and liberal. At my son's Uni, there were entire blocks of campus accommodation which were occupied mostly by a specific ethnicity who kept themselves to themselves, only socialised in the bar for those blocks, didn't join clubs & societies, didn't mix in lectures, etc. In years 2 and 3 when they moved into private accommodation in the city, the same, they chose to live in specific areas of town and again had their own community.
I was in the area round Manchester uni recently. It was good weather, with lots of students walking around.
All keeping to the same ethnic group. No mixing at all.
Which I find worrying.

Looking at the state of the world, and my lack of options, not really. There are worse places for sure, but circumstance and experience has made me cynical and weary. It is what it is.

@Crikeyalmighty and @Feelingathomenow you both speak a lot of sense and thank you for your non hyperbolic reasoned posts.

Oh I’ve not seen them. I rely on my knowledge from my uni days being taught by lecturers who specialised in EU law plus my 20 odd years working in an environment heavily impacted by EU law, going to counsel etc. what I did experience is many of our anti avoidance laws designed to keep tax in the UK were thwarted by the European Pillars of Freedom of Movement and Freedom of establishment..there was quite a lot of tax leakage from the UK

I would say this is one of the most worrying things happening in the UK. If there is no integration, there will be no society. This needs to be a top priority of the government- yet not a single peep from Starmer. Over the next 4.5 years it’s going to get worse. We will see a far right government in the next election (as we will across Europe. No one wants extremist governments but is what happens when the centre fails to balance things the electorate yank hard on the wheel to try and straighten things up. Kier Starmer needs to prioritise this now not pussy foot round the problem, already it is going to need extreme measures to rebalance

I agree.