My town has really changed

[CatbellsOnTheSeashore]

In a confusing and not very pleasant way.

It was gradually changing for the worse before covid, but the pandemic seemed to accelerate it, and I am wondering if anyone else has noticed anything like this.

It became more insular whilst more populated, the population increased quite a bit over the past 5 yrs. More and more dereliction, low council maintenance and an influx of troubled people housed around the town centre, which is now a no-go zone. Areas surrounding have steadily grown worse also, as it seems to be spilling out.

What does feel really different is that there are now lots of groups of men, hanging around drinking or sat on pavements together (not begging). Drugs took over the local nature paths and canal walks so now there are large groups of people out of their heads lying on old sofas at the locks, it's really grim. Women who used to cycle and run in these areas have more or less moved elsewhere or stopped.

More and more standard sized houses in low to middle income areas are becoming HMO's, yet with poor refuse organisation and not enough parking. I'm not exaggerating when I say there are literally trails of dog shit in the streets in many areas, too, which pretty much hangs in the air and the place stinks. That, and skunk.

We live in a decent part of town but it is coming closer, and I only have that perk due to inheriting my parents bungalow. More and more people are moving out.

On a walk to Sainsbury's yesterday two guys were holding onto a sign pole hovering over a bin. As I passed by one of them vomited into the bin and then spat/gobbed an inch from my feet - he didn't notice me particularly, but it was quite sudden or I'd have given them a wide berth.
This isn't unusual now.

I know people usually blame the cost of living and covid, etc, but this was definitely on the rise before. There is far more noise pollution as more buildings go up, usually industrial, and the roads are a nightmare. Infrastructure for actual people is decreasing.
That said, I don't think most of these people were thriving before, so it isn't a sudden change. It is as if a new kind of culture is growing, that doesn't care a damn about anything. Everything is vandalised or shat on. More and more windows are broken in properties close to the town centre, and I doubt most of these people were thriving before the pandemic hit.

Is this bad luck or is anything like it happening elsewhere?
We are definitely looking to move away.

I see your point totally, but the 'Tina' from Wigan really wouldn't give a hoot, nor would she really know what the National Trust is. We might have different Tina's

Sickening when those that own prime property in large town centres know fine well that their tenants are just giving it lip service as minimal profit going in the door, and huge revenues being made?? so basically a nice money launder front. Their rents are getting paid and in a few years will be sodding off to a nice European retirement luxury pad.
No word of extended family (if they have any or even care about them) still living in said towns.

Does not surprise me one jot.

All the Tinas I know are members of the NT and visit regularly.
I agree about virtue signalling re slavery (we ended the Triangular Trade, and slavery in the empire, did not pay the final bill till 2015) whilst buying clothes made by virtually slave labour and child labour elsewhere. Everyone everywhere was touched by slavery since it's been around since Noah (or earlier); judging people in the past by today's passing morals is moral anachronism. Judge people by their time's standards - ours do not count in the past (which is done and dusted).

The OP doesn’t live in Wigan - not if she lives between Upholland and Appley Bridge. Roby Mill? Nice, quaint, desirable village, surrounded by nice countryside and lovely canal walks nearby. I wouldn’t choose the canal side in Wigan town centre for a walk if I lived there.i do go for walks at the flashes though, they’re nice, busy, lots of water sports which is good to see. I work in Wigan town centre - happy to walk round the shops there, I usually mooch in Waterstones and Boots and have a coffee in a cafe, it’s usually full of college students. It’s struggling as many town centres are, especially in the north but I don’t recognise it from your description. Nearly all my colleagues live there - decent, well adjusted, perfectly normal people.

Lol at the pretty picture of the town centre! It's absolutely not full of students at all. The Grand is perpetually empty, the buskers are too loud and the high street is chock full of drunks, druggies and beggars.
Most of the shops are vacant or temporary pound style shops, and another bookies pop up every time a bank closes. Iceland is the only shop where you can buy anything remotely similar to food, and the cafe's are loud and cramped.

Perhaps you ought to take a stroll through the bustling market, the part that still has a scattering of tenants.

i really get not wanting to see it though. I tried that for years, and I would bristle if someone criticised it. But I've seen too much, and it's time to go.
It's been badly managed and let down, and I wouldn't blame any resident for being angry and upset about that. Most people I know who live close to the town either get the 10min train to Preston or do their shopping in Chorley now.

I agree. I think it was in this thread where someone said it was a myth that immigrants wouldn’t integrate.
Maybe that’s true where they live, but in our local town there are definitely large groups of people who seem to live in a bit of a parallel society.

Also, similar problems exist in several other European countries who are still part of the EU.

Bradford (and the surrounding ex milltowns) is a particularly egregious example of the "wrong sort" of immigration: family "chain migration" where marriages to cousins have been used to bring in one relative after another. Into an area which is economically stagnant and which by rights should probably have a declining population rather than an increasing one.

I am an immigrant myself in a non-white, non-English speaking country outside the UK, and believe strongly that immigration can be a positive thing for society, but there is good immigration and there is bad immigration, and Bradford has got the wrong sort going on there; it's not contributing anything positive to the UK.

The UK should have laws similar to Denmark, which regulate marriage-to-non-Danes in ways that make it harder to use the system to "bring in" relatives from poor countries in this manner. The partners have to be at least 24, they must between them have lived a minimum of X years in Denmark, etc. etc.

I think Bradford is a particularly bad example of poor integration though. Most of the UK seems to do a lot better than this.

This is what happens when people vote right wing. I can't believe the stupidity of people these days.

This is what happens when all our industry is moved abroad so we can buy cheaper products. All parties allowed this but it was us the electorate who wanted the cheap prices.
I don't know why some countries - ireland and Netherlands can set their Corporation Tax low and attract all the multibillion silicon valley companies but somehow we cannot.

Anecdotal I know but my husband recently went to Rome, he said that at immigration he had to go through a queue for “third country nationals”. (He has a UK passport). He said this queue was actually smaller than the EU nationals queue.

I don't think low corporation tax is the answer, in fact I think it's part of the problem and creates a race to the bottom. What we need is internationally agreed corporation tax so big companies can't sit around and wait for the cheapest bid imo. Can't see that happening though. Lower corporation tax might work if ordinary workers got to benefit from the massive profits they create, they don't though. Instead we have the likes of Jeff Bezos in space while the workers in his warehouses (the ones doing the actual work to create the profits) are dependent on public assistance because they don't earn enough to feed their children.

People see places differently. I know Blackpool well. I don't recognise it from other's descriptions. The town I see - and my house is in the 'holiday area' - has groups of colourfully dressed young people getting happily drunk, parents with children going on the rides, sitting in the cafes, the beach full of happy people, some with picnics. Between Sept and May people run their dogs on the beach (carrying poo-bags to an owner - lots of bins) and the wind whips off the sea. The Tower is a beacon for miles around and the winter lights trim the huge bay with irridiscent colour. The two main theatres - the Grand and the Winter Garden's Opera House - put on a variety of shows: I have seen 'The Marriage of Figaro', 'Madam Butterfly', 'La Boheme', 'Romeo and Juliet' (NT - poor production, but it was a packed house), 'Swan Lake', 'The Nutcracker'. Serious plays and farces, pantomime (always 2 a year, since the North Pier Theatre also puts one on in the summer) and musicals all appear, as well as some pieces many would call 'experimental' and getting an airing before a national run. Friends come from London to see ex-London shows at a quarter of the price. There is also a wealth of local societies which put on plays and events. It's a vibrant place. There is also a huge Pride event, since Blackpool is the northern equivalent of Brighton, and one can go to drag shows at Funny Girls or Ma Kelly's.
There are also antique emporiums both in Blackpool and round about - large places full of bargains and collectibles. They all thrive.
Yes, there are beggars - though fewer than before Covid - and the Salvation Army works among them, having a huge hostel. There are large numbers of HMOs since the local council took in the homeless of Manchester c.2000 because it would help struggling landlords (bugger the beggars!).
The schools are not wonderful (underfunded), but I can tell you (because my ex-BiL is a doctor) that the Intensive Therapy Unit at Victoria Hospital is one of the best in the country and when my late DH had a cardiac arrest the ambulance was at our house in 4 minutes.
Others see other things, of course.

NB Never visit Blackpool when the Young Farmers come to play - everyone disappears because these well-off young men are yobs. But the Punks (who stood against rioters last summer, protecting immigrants and property), the pigeon fanciers, the dancers (Blackpool hosts the international finals for dancing competitions), and the other multitudinous groups who come to Blackpool for their events, are all welcoming and friendly. The fireworks of autumn - another international competition - draw people from all the surrounding areas, too. Political parties should return to Blackpool for conferences. The Labour Party might then understand why the North mostly voted to leave the EU, their experience of foreign invaders, of course, being coloured by the events of the 1080s, known as the Harrying of the North, from which the North has not yet recovered - thanks, William, you Bastard.

lol and Starmer with his let’s solve everything by getting more volunteer police and people with no arrest powers (and a few more regular police) is going to help that? Mr kill free speech Starmer.

Hes hell bent on destroying the countryside, overwhelming the already overwhelmed local services, because environmentalists and people actually living in communities are getting in the way of him allowing a free for all entry into the UK (where was immigration on his list of things to tackle)?

All I see is people regretting voting Labour. What they thought would happen god only knows. Labours manifesto was pure lies, we just need to hope and pray something happens to result in an early general election (although granted that would be very unlikely) it’s like people thought having a bunch of sixth formers running the country would be a good idea

I’m not painting a pretty picture - I’m describing what I do on my lunch hour. Nobody’s there but drunks and beggars but the cafes are too busy? Some people like buskers and music in the street. You don’t - fine. Go and move to another large northern town( not that you live in one now) that doesn’t have any social issues - good luck. There’s a lot more to Wigan than what you have described and a lot of people are working to improve it.

Exactly its insane how these lefties blame absolutely everything on Brexit a lot of towns have had drug and crime problems since way before Brexit it's just these sheltered people don't tend to live in places like that.

France and Germany have very similar problems and they're literally in the EU in fact a lot of EU countries are going more right wing because the shitty effects of mass immigration are becoming more and more obvious.

All the low tax countries and tax havens would kick up a massive stink as it's often the only thing that they have going for them.

Just look at Isle of Man. It'd be a barren wasteland if it wasn't a tax haven. It's got virtually no tourist industry anymore and little other "industry". That's the same for most tax haven islands really (and some mainland tax havens too!).

If the "higher" tax countries want to get rid of tax havens, they'd either have to pay billions in compensation to them or start wars!

Exactly this. Same with the vacuum of decent shops in so many town centres. It was happening 30 years ago, but because people didn't experience it in their own town, they turned a blind eye. Now the wave has swept into otherwise "naice" places, they're suffering the same themselves, but just can't accept it's been the direction of travel for decades and instead blame immigrants or brexit or whatever other fashionable excuse and demanding change. Funny how they weren't bothered about it happening to all the seaside resorts and ex-industrial Northern towns, isn't it??

@30percent it most certainly isn't all about Brexit in terms of individual towns or a general downhill trend- but neither is it all about immigration either. I made the point about Brexit because what it does affect is overall 'investment worthiness' for the country as a whole. So less reasonably well paid jobs within industrial/ manufacturing sector - less grants for areas that used to get quite a lot of- although in all fairness I think far too much was directed towards big northern cities and not to medium sized places- it also means vast amounts of money was spent on Brexit too- money that would have been far better spent on other aspects of society - and yes it was going downhill before Brexit but that's because other factors were at play plus a government that massively liked to play the austerity card 'look how prudent we are' and thenspaffed £400 billion on Brexit that wasn't needed and hasn't made anything better. So whilst Brexit isn't the sole cause by a very long way, it certainly hasn't helped in being able to turn things around economically . The other countries you mentioned do have many similar issues but don't have the added thing of Brexit on top - again though they too allowed far too much immigration , in Germanys case a lot of this was down to a hugely declining birth rate as well, the simple fact is we cannot absorb vast amounts of populations from war torn and dysfunctional country's - I am with people opposed to immigration on that - I don't disagree. However to a large extent that's not 100% what's happened in the UK - we do have far too many unrequested immigrants- but we also have vast swathes of immigration from 3rd world countries- all approved and sought by the previous government - partly Hong Kong - but partly Brexit and huge numbers of essential workers leaving the UK - this was predicted but certainly wasn't publicised as likely by the leave campaign.

The actual decline is in my opinion due to a mix of factors. Online shopping, ludicrous business rates, high rents both in business and domestically, lack of social housing meaning many people have far less free money to spend, lack of policing, a total lack of standards of behaviour amongst certain sectors, councils being starved of cash due to having to cover social care charges which are more in demand than ever due to the family no longer being able/willing to care for elderly/sick relatives, lack of policing of drug use in public- and finally in some places yes a lack of integration amongst certain communities- so immigration in 'some' areas is in the mix but in my opinion is dwarfed by all the other big issues- but is the one many people get fixated on.

The decline of working-class towns started when they were all solid Labour. The fact that Labour is perceived to have done so little for them is a big part of why we are where we are.

Very good comprehensive coverage of all the issues here

Absolutely agree with this.
and the house price rises in Wigan over the last 2 years support this.
its actually a great place to live, great connections to cities, countryside and coast. (Albeit Northern trains need to lose their franchise to improve the connections to Manchester) A good connection to London. Lots of green space in the borough that is not threatening at all. Good communities (you only need to look at Standish to see evidence of this and how it is thriving).

when the development is completed the town centre absolutely will improve. There are already moves towards this with the fantastic Feast at the Mills and the soon to arrive social space in the old Debenhams unit. Haigh Hall runs a great arts and artisan programme and is a gorgeous place to walk. The Robin Park concerts over the summer were exceptional and will inevitably be repeated. The aim is to make Wigan a destination and I’m optimistic this will happen.

Thank you @Jumell - it is a multi faceted decline and it annoys me when every time it all becomes about immigration- I myself was anti Brexit as is obvious but there seems to be an assumption that anyone to the centre or centre left is totally pro unfettered immigration- that is not the case for me, but I was certainly far more pro the fact we previously post2010 I would say have mainly younger single people coming from the EU , sometimes just for a few years and it worked both ways too - most of these people were not draining resources and not bringing whole families needing housing , education and health on a regular basis - they worked in a variety of jobs too- I have a horrible suspicion that plenty who have come here in the last few years ostensibly to work in NHS etc will simply vanish after Al while into the invisible black market sector. I heard A cab driver the other week chatting in a cafe with another that he can't leave the UK to go anywhere at all as he had a visa for a care job only and staying was tied to the job - but he isn't doing it anymore - I am a very liberal minded person but I do see why others feel aggrieved if lots of this is going on - when we lived in Denmark we had to show our visa 'a lot'

councils being starved of cash due to having to cover social care charges which are more in demand than ever due to the family no longer being able/willing to care for elderly/sick relatives

Yes- and a vicious circle because poorer areas naturally have higher demand for services and lower income from council tax.

The housing crisis also contributes to the issue of families not taking in older relatives. My parents took in my grandmother, she sold her cottage and they sold their little house and pooled resources to afford a house big enough for her to move into with them and their children. We couldn’t take in my MiL , even if we pooled everything- value of our current properties plus incomes- simply because something adequate for our circumstances would cost close to half a million in this area and it’s just not feasible for us to get a mortgage for that amount at our age. My friends are in similar situations- some in council flats, some in private rentals, some on boats. None of us can have our parents to live with us even if we want to.

@AlertCat

Yes- and a vicious circle because poorer areas naturally have higher demand for services and lower income from council tax.

Yes, but to an extent, councils have brought this on themselves by encouraging/asking "undesirables" to move into their run down towns, typically run down seaside resorts and run down ex-industrial towns, as there was typically lots of empty accommodation that they could be moved into.

In my own seaside town, the council actively encouraged and even advertised in prisons for newly released prisoners to come here to occupy the empty boarding houses. Inevitably, that's put massively increased pressure on the local policing, local council support services, etc., as there were no jobs for these people to do, so many continued with a life of crime or anti social behaviour.

Same happens when immigrants are being moved out of major cities to "spread them around" - no thought is put into what they're going to do and how they're going to be supported and managed.