AIBU: trying to balance needs of social group with needs of person living with cancer?

[purplevipersgrass]

Over lockdown I got involved with a random friends-of-friends women's social group that met on line most days to help keep the spirits of those living alone up. We ended up with a really nice group and after Covid we had a number of get-togethers, one in the summer and one pre-Christmas. Last year and again this year we have an exclusive booking with a restaurant and all those coming pay a £20 deposit in advance. I'm the main organiser.

Last year, before our Christmas's event, one of the central figures, Jenny, was diagnosed with cancer and secondaries and started chemo. She wanted to come to the event, but asked that everyone take a Covid test before attending. Fortunately only a couple of people dropped out as a result and we had a good evening. Jenny signed up and paid her £20 for this Christmas, too. The event was held last night and we had 44 women booked to attend, all of whom had paid £20.

On Friday morning Jenny sent an urgent message to everyone on WA, asking us all to take a Covid test yesterday a few hours before arriving. She also asked anyone showing any sign of a cold or infection, or living with someone who had a cold or an infection, to stay at home, as she's immune-suppressed. Probably a dozen women contacted me to say that they always have a runny nose/ sinus problems at this time of year and they don't think it's catching but who knows... Some of them must have contacted Jenny directly, because she sent out a message saying she couldn't deal with people individually but she'd be grateful if anyone who had anything that she could catch, or was living in close proximity to anyone who wasn't well, would stay away, as it was likely to be her last chance to celebrate with us.

So last night, instead of 44 of us gathering in a restaurant that can seat 50, only 29 turned up. Most of those who cancelled said the same thing: they didn't think they were infectious but they weren't 100% and so to be on the safe side they dropped out. Which would have been fine, except that then Jenny didn't turn up. About an hour after the arrive-by time I phoned her and her partner answered her phone and said she'd gone to bed.

Our contract with the restaurant was that 44 of us would attend and have a meal, with a total anticipated expenditure of £2500+. In the end, our bill came to around £1900. The proprietor was polite but firm that he couldn't be expected to return the £260 that had been paid as a deposit by those who hadn't turned up. He pointed out that initially he'd expected the restaurant to be almost filled by our party and so he'd offered the private booking and turned other bookings away. I've had a couple of people who dropped out in case they were brewing a cold contact me today to ask if they'll get their deposit back, and they're okay about it, but there are others who I'm expecting to be annoyed.

Those who came last night really enjoyed themselves and want to do it again next year. Should we find ourselves in this situation next year, would IBU to say that if Jenny is still immune-suppressed, we organise a separate, lower-cost event centred on her and have the dinner event open to all, whether they're slightly sniffy or not? I can see that that might leave her feeling excluded but I can't think of another alternative.

A little help is fine, keep a distance etc. I have friends who have problems that necessitate a bit of planning and consideration. However asking people not to attend then not turning up isn't ok.

Jenny should be paying £20 pp for all of the people who couldn't attend due to her ridiculous rules.

I actually cannot believe how self centred she is.

If you are immune-suppressed and can't risk getting ill, you just don't attend large-scale indoor mixing events surely?

I don’t understand how Jenny thought she would be protecting herself by stopping people turning up who had a sniffle - what about the serving staff, manager, chefs - they might have been unwell and working. We aren’t living through covid restricting people from working anymore, so she could have caught something anyway. I think then not showing up herself after guilt tripping others into not going is really bad too.
I would cut her some slack because of her cancer, but I wouldn’t jump to her tune again in similar circumstances going forwards.

Err this. It’s impressively obnoxious!

Zero chance of me paying them back. I can see the restaurants perspective about this

Have you looked at how much it is to upgrade to first class? Sometimes it isn't very much at all and you get free tea, coffee, snacks which helps offset too. My sister did this when immunocompromised because it's quieter and more spaced out.

It's fairly obvious that any gathering of 44 people at this time of year will almost inevitably include some who have minor illnesses or latent illnesses or who have been in contact with somebody who has an infection. Jenny obviously realised at a late stage that the gathering would not be safe for her, but she should have pulled out of the arrangement on Friday morning, rather than allowing fifteen other people to pull out for her benefit. Her not turning up was rude, but irrelevant to the main issue.

Not to me - the £260 deposit made me wonder. That aside, I don't think you are responsible for the debacle or need to pay back the deposit though I fully understand why you would feel that. It's hard, knowing it was the only treat for someone and it's a bitter pill for her to miss out and lose the deposit as well.

It may have been avoidable with notice but that was Jenny's responsibility. Illness and treatment of course must be allowed for but it's still unreasonable not to let people know - the partner could have done it for her. You can't go on making arrangements in these conditions. It's too much to put on yourself and you can't accommodate both parties' needs at such an event, never mind the restaurant's requirements and expectations.

Good tip. I do look at this for long distance services, although regional services often don't have this option and are usually overcrowded! I'm permanently immunocompromised (blood cancer) btw so not a temporary thing as per folks on chemo. Thanks for the suggestion.

If it's temporary then yeah, it's more tricky if it's permanent
I avoid public transport, unwell people in my home etc etc but I also have to have some semblance of a lift

It does not help against Covid, but I use a couple of cold-prevention/early treatment products that you spray up your nose and throat when I go out in public in winter, wash hands when I get in, wear gloves on train, and I would- I don't as not immuno-compromised, wear a proper mask, I had some in Covid that are much better, not those thin blue paper ones. There are lots of people on Twitter in the chronic illness community who take precautions every time they go anywhere, you can also get a portable air purifier thing, they are very expensive but might be another option for some.

Not suggesting this for Jenny, but I think you can stack your chances of defending yourself against viruses to some extent- what you can't do is prevent them and remove the risk entirely, or control others spread very easily- even if people masked if they had cold/flu (and who knows who has Covid), they are symptomless early on and that's how the crafty viruses spread before anyone knows they are ill as they go out and sneeze/spread it then get sick a day or two later.

What happens if a stranger has a cold in the restaurant?

I'd do separate tables next time, ones for the potentially infectious people, and ones for the 'safe people' and open the window next to Jenny.

Not fair that numerous people can't go just because of one person. Jenny could have a later, smaller meet up instead.

Good of you to update, OP ... so since she's "mortified" perhaps she'll offer to refund all those who might otherwise have come but lost their deposits?

I think this is very tricky. I can understand the person here wanting to live as normal a life as possible.

However, when it's such a big group, it's impossible to 'screen' everyone.

My DP has Stage 4 cancer. He's been having treatment for 3 years. There is no cure for his cancer.

He's doing as much as he can to 'live normally' but he is very careful about mixing with groups and wouldn't even think of going to a group with 50 people. He feels a max of 5 to 6 is enough (and all his friends are over 60 and vaccinated.) He has had Covid and it's unknown where he caught it, despite having had loads of vaccines.

I think anyone who wants to avoid being infected has to make choices over what they do and not expect everyone else to fit in with their needs.

I do feel very sorry for Jenny and I can see how she ended up missing it if she lay down for a rest and fell fast asleep.

However I don't think she can dictate to a large group, in winter, that no-one can attend with a sniffle (or if someone in their house has a sniffle).

I think it would be better to organise smaller group things with Jenny. And if Jenny is that vulnerable to even a mild cold then a big indoor meet-up in winter is probably not something she can do (sadly). But it's very tricky if Jenny is posting on the chat and asking people not to come. That would mean OP or someone else has to speak up on the chat and say "err no". Which is really hard!! I don't know what I would do about that really!!

It sounds like a difficult situation all round.
I think - bearing in mind what has happened this time around- should the Christmas meal question arise next year you would be justified in having a quiet word with her to say at the planning stages that it's unreasonable to expect people not to attend unless their entire household has a clean bill of health and that she should decline this one.

Or parents. All those children who are infecting their teachers are also infecting their parents.

I have been where Jenny is and as much as it sucks you have to accept your own level of risk. You cannot expect people to live their lives around you especially when they aren’t close

My SIL died of cancer a year ago aged 39. Thinking carefully won't change anything.
However carefully Jenny thinks

• a virus could still kill her
• whether or not she's tried a new treatment, a good day, can become a bedridden, floppy, vomiting day at a moments notice for no apparent reason
• trying to call before going to bed doesn't work, if you've just gone from ok, to crawling to the loo while trying not to vomit on the carpet, to wondering if you've enough energy to make it to bed, in minutes.
• If she's not likely to make it another year then she either tries her best, or just decides to never see you all again.

Chalk this up to the horrible reality of cancer, and move on. I think arranging a smaller gathering in the new year is good. I would also say could you arrange something that doesn't involve advanced payment and doesn't involve a longish event? If, for example, a few of you could meet at someone's house, that could be something Jenny can pop into for half an hour, doesn't have to eat if she feels sicky, and can probably sit in a comfy chair with a cup of tea, rather than having to commit to a few hours, on a hard chair, somewhere where she is expected to eat.

The migraine was an example, to show how ridiculous the ask was. Yes you dont have a migraine for ever.

In my example the uber driver... OP mentioned in a later update that Jenny had booked an UBER, she didn't ask the uber driver if he had a cold? I mean she didn't get in as it turned out, because she fell asleep, but she was planning too, so it is manipulative of her friends and people who were due to attend that she asked THEM to stay away if they had a sniffle, because she wasn't able to make sure the uber driver, waitresses, & other patrons weren't ill. Her expecting that her situation trumped other attendees is manipulative and wrong, She has the responsibility for her own health, not everyone else.

I think Jenny would have been all right dictating this to a group of 4 friends, but not 44. This way she is totally unreasonable.

Just to look at this another way, is J's husband also being careful about socialising?

My DP is on cancer treatment and has been for 3 years. I became almost a hermit at first when he was on one particularly brutal type. I'm still very careful about where I go and who I mix with. Our family keep away if they have colds etc.

He wouldn't dream of going to a gathering of 40+people. We still avoid busy cafes, etc etc, and his limit is around 4 close friends who know his circumstances.

@toomuchfaff but it's limiting exposure
Otherwise what do I do? Never get in a taxi or go for a meal out or a cafe or any socialising for the rest of my life?

I avoid trains, buses, cinemas, busy indoor packed places, hospital and GP waiting rooms
A passing waitress isn't as much of a risk in a way, any friends won't come over to mine if they're unwell

I'm not saying she is being totally reasonable (she isn't) but I do get her thinking in a way
It's so fucking hard running through risks in your head constantly

I would also say could you arrange something that doesn't involve advanced payment and doesn't involve a longish event? If, for example, a few of you could meet at someone's house, that could be something Jenny can pop into for half an hour, doesn't have to eat if she feels sicky, and can probably sit in a comfy chair with a cup of tea, rather than having to commit to a few hours, on a hard chair, somewhere where she is expected to eat.

The advanced payment/ night out option suits the vast majority of people in the group. It's a bit different and more special than an afternoon gathering for tea and if people are driving a couple of hours to attend (and in some cases staying over with friends or in hotels) it makes it a proper celebration. Jenny was the only person (this year, anyway) whom it didn't suit. Lots of the people who were booked for Saturday night already know each other and Jenny and routinely hold smaller home-based get-togethers, some of which I know Jenny has been invited to.

so do you routinely go to gatherings of 44?

I understand what you're saying, I've had friends with cancer, and they restricted themselves from large gatherings, they didn't ask everyone at a large gathering to not attend something, they would organise something they felt comfortable with, even having people in their own house so they limited their own exposure. Jenny is unreasonable. I'm not saying all immunosuppressed people must live luke hermits, not enjoy a semblance of a life. I'm saying Jenny was unreasonable to ask a gathering of 44 people to restrict their own attendance so she could go (and then not go!)