AIBU: trying to balance needs of social group with needs of person living with cancer?

[purplevipersgrass]

Over lockdown I got involved with a random friends-of-friends women's social group that met on line most days to help keep the spirits of those living alone up. We ended up with a really nice group and after Covid we had a number of get-togethers, one in the summer and one pre-Christmas. Last year and again this year we have an exclusive booking with a restaurant and all those coming pay a £20 deposit in advance. I'm the main organiser.

Last year, before our Christmas's event, one of the central figures, Jenny, was diagnosed with cancer and secondaries and started chemo. She wanted to come to the event, but asked that everyone take a Covid test before attending. Fortunately only a couple of people dropped out as a result and we had a good evening. Jenny signed up and paid her £20 for this Christmas, too. The event was held last night and we had 44 women booked to attend, all of whom had paid £20.

On Friday morning Jenny sent an urgent message to everyone on WA, asking us all to take a Covid test yesterday a few hours before arriving. She also asked anyone showing any sign of a cold or infection, or living with someone who had a cold or an infection, to stay at home, as she's immune-suppressed. Probably a dozen women contacted me to say that they always have a runny nose/ sinus problems at this time of year and they don't think it's catching but who knows... Some of them must have contacted Jenny directly, because she sent out a message saying she couldn't deal with people individually but she'd be grateful if anyone who had anything that she could catch, or was living in close proximity to anyone who wasn't well, would stay away, as it was likely to be her last chance to celebrate with us.

So last night, instead of 44 of us gathering in a restaurant that can seat 50, only 29 turned up. Most of those who cancelled said the same thing: they didn't think they were infectious but they weren't 100% and so to be on the safe side they dropped out. Which would have been fine, except that then Jenny didn't turn up. About an hour after the arrive-by time I phoned her and her partner answered her phone and said she'd gone to bed.

Our contract with the restaurant was that 44 of us would attend and have a meal, with a total anticipated expenditure of £2500+. In the end, our bill came to around £1900. The proprietor was polite but firm that he couldn't be expected to return the £260 that had been paid as a deposit by those who hadn't turned up. He pointed out that initially he'd expected the restaurant to be almost filled by our party and so he'd offered the private booking and turned other bookings away. I've had a couple of people who dropped out in case they were brewing a cold contact me today to ask if they'll get their deposit back, and they're okay about it, but there are others who I'm expecting to be annoyed.

Those who came last night really enjoyed themselves and want to do it again next year. Should we find ourselves in this situation next year, would IBU to say that if Jenny is still immune-suppressed, we organise a separate, lower-cost event centred on her and have the dinner event open to all, whether they're slightly sniffy or not? I can see that that might leave her feeling excluded but I can't think of another alternative.

Is it really? I think calling it ableist just attempts to oversimplify something very complicated and nuanced.

A couple of the people who did attend said to me, once it was clear that Jenny wasn't coming, that it was actually a relief because they both felt a bit under par in the hours before coming out and had been worried they might inadvertently give her an infection. I just felt grateful they had come. It would have been really difficult if even more people had failed to turn up.

'Ableist', what nonsense.

At this time of year lots of people have the beginnings of sniffles, live with people that have a cold or flu, or travel on buses or trains with others that might nbe coming dow with something.

As someone else said what about the staff at the restaurant. So, it's up to those that are vulnerable to weigh up the risks and make a decision whether to go out or not. Everybody else shouldn't have to stay at home for fear of compromising a vulnerable person. Where would the world be if the all the well did that? Empty offices, empty public transport and in this situation a half full restaurant that still has to pay its staff.

Also, did Jenny consider other people's circumstances? For some of the other attendees, that could be their only outing due financial issues, caring responsibilities etc.

I think in future Jenny can organise her own get togethers with smaller groups. If she wants to come to larger events she can but she doesn't get to put conditions on anyone else's attendance.

Jenny should be making this request clear at the time of planning, not the day before.

In reality, it should not need to be stated, anyone who could spread a contagious illness should be staying home from social events. Plenty of people live with an immune compromised individual.

It is unfortunate what happened but I would cut her some slack given her condition and prognosis.

I can understand that Jenny was too tired/unwell last minute to come along, that happens when you are ill, but it was thoughtless of her to not message to say. Although she possibly didn't think so many wouldn't come because of colds etc compared to the couple last year, and perhaps she kept hoping that a lie down would help and she'd have enough energy to attend.

Was it reasonable of her to make that request of everyone? I'm not sure. I can understand why she did it and why she desperately wanted to come along. If it was a meal for her I think she'd be reasonable to ask. In this circumstance I think she'd of been better to ask if she could eg sit with a certain few people who know her best and would be happy to make sure they weren't contagious, or ask to sit near a window, or perhaps acknowledge as rubbish as it is that being very immunocompromised and in a big group inside isn't compatible. Maybe she could've met some people before hand outside for a drink or cuppa. It's difficult, I have health conditions that mean I have to miss things, or adapt things, and it's hard and it's unfair. And I don't have a terminal condition that brings in more hugely difficult feelings. But I don't think it's fair to put unreasonable restrictions on other people.

This event was a dinner ie not something people attending needed to hugely prepare for? So people who dropped out last minute because of her could probably have attended last minute if she had just told people she couldn't attend. Not everyone of course, some people might have already cancelled childcare etc, but I imagine a fair few could have. Very unreasonable of her to not have at least asked her husband to let people know.

The issue isn't that Jenny asked people to consider her condition. The issue is that she fucked off to bed and didn't tell anyone. They could have all gone! Absolutely awful behaviour and I would be having words with her.

In reality, it should not need to be stated, anyone who could spread a contagious illness should be staying home from social events.

It's never going to be the case that as a general rule that not just anyone with a cold, but also anyone who lives with someone who has a cold (as Jenny requested), stays home automatically.
And that's certainly not going to ever be the case with staff at restaurants.

Sorry but Jenny is just wrong to do this. She can’t expect 44 people to pander to her needs

i accept she’s having treatment but she should have said sorry I can’t attend, crack on and perhaps we can sort something in the new year

i would be referring those who can’t get the deposit back to Jenny, it’s her actions that have caused this and then not to turn up is just rude. She could have warned you earlier in the day so the rest could attend

Regardless of someone attending who is specifically immunosuppressed, it's really antisocial to take bugs out and about with you to indoor events - so tricky when it feels like just a cold.

I have sympathy with Jenny. A guy at my work turned up to the office while he had Covid last week. Some people in the office have caring responsibilities, I think it’s really irresponsible.

But yeah, what you suggested sounds reasonable. A smaller, more low-key get together for the immune suppressed and a free for all party sounds like a good compromise. I don’t think it will make that much difference to Jenny whether they are 15 or 40 people at the lower key get-together. Its’s still a fun get-together with those numbers.

Im thinking others who dropped out realised they would be risking their deposit and probably won’t give you a hard time about it.

Im thinking others who dropped out realised they would be risking their deposit and probably won’t give you a hard time about it.

Sadly you would be wrong on that one. Only a couple of people, but they're people who can't afford to lose £20 at this time of year. I'll probably end up paying them back out of my own pocket.

It’s such a shitty situation all round, I guess to me I’d be wondering if any of this will matter much one day if Jenny passes away. If I knew my time was limited I would want every opportunity to go out with my friends but I’m sure I would also be permanently terrified. I’m not sure people in that position can always be expected to make rational and considerate choices and requests of others.

A lot of illnesses are spread before a person develops symptoms. So what can you do then?

Again, if someone lives with an immuno compromised individual, it's their responsibility to decide whether to attend events where they may pick something up and take it home.

Like it or not people have stopped wearing face masks to protect others, since the height of COVID. I willingly did so, but it our society no longer think it appropriate to continue to do so. So, it's down to those who are immunosuppressed and those that live with them to be responsible for themselves, as our society isn't going to go out of its way to protect you, because if it cared we would all still be wearing masks.

Yes, I do think it's ableist to say that someone who's immunosuppressed shouldn't attend group events. That means Jenny will in all likelihood never attend another group event, whereas if people proceed with caution they'll miss the odd event but no one will be barred from the group.

I appreciate that it’s a difficult time of year but it doesn’t seem at all reasonable for you to meet any shortfall. You already did people a huge favour in taking on all the labour of the organising.

I’m sorry for Jenny’s situation, but she was unreasonable. She shouldn’t dictate to everyone, then not turn up herself.
I feel bad for you op. It’s hard organising things, without having to deal with this extra stress on top.

We have a relative with terminal cancer, it's tragic, gut wrenchingly awful.
I admire and understand her cast iron boundaries, I respect that she needs to lead her own path and the rest of us have time ahead to do our own things.
But she's really quite unpleasant to be around, she doesn't give a shit about anyone else. It's all about her.
Here's the kicker, she was like this in her 20s, she was awful in her 30s, she's always been the parent to take time out, to persue a path whilst others mop up behind. Cancer has just put a veneer of justification over some ultimately selfish behaviour.

I would never expect a deposit back for something if I decided not to attend. The point of the deposit is to guarantee some income for the restaurant if you don't show up. Returning the deposit makes no sense!

My dad recently went through chemo and he either wouldn't have gone, or if he had really wanted to attend, he would have sent out a message beforehand asking anyone who was poorly to steer clear of him, and he would have sat strategically where he wouldn't have lots of people wandering past him/in close contact with him.

I sympathise with her situation but she has to appreciate that life is ticking on as usual for everyone else, and whilst friends should make reasonable compromises, she cannot expect everyone to pander to her.

@purplevipersgrass the unreasonable thing is Jenny not telling you so you could at least ring some of the others and ask if they could still make it. I think also it would have been appropriate to say to Jenny ‘there is a group financial commitment’. If there is a next time I think all this has to be clear to everyone. You should not end up having to pay people back. Jenny should have brought this up sooner but because she didn’t, while sad you were within your rights to say that it was too short notice and it would cause a penalty. Difficult but avoidable if she had informed you sooner so you could have gone somewhere else without such penalty etc.

But there has to be compromises on both sides. And sadly there will be somethings that Jenny has to accept that she cannot do, and perhaps big group events inside is one of those. I have sympathy, I understand how hard that is, but some adjustments are reasonable and others aren't.

This, I'm wondering if jenny is on mn...

I think Jenny has behaved in an unacceptably inconsiderate way.

As a PP pointed out she couldn't place the same stipulations on the restaurant staff but she intended to go anyway. Did she know that the restaurant was reserved exclusively for your party? What would she have done if other people were in the restaurant?

Members of the group have lost their deposit or OP will be out of pocket and the restaurant has lost hundreds of pounds which they probably could ill afford in the current economic climate.

To not phone or text to let you know she wasn't coming is incredibly rude.

I sympathise with Jenny, but I don't think her request was reasonable. This is not a couple of mates visiting her at home. This is a group of 44 other people attending a public space as a one-off event. If treatment was giving her multiple infections (which isn't unsual), I think she should have considered the risk and dropped out if she felt the risk of her catching something/becoming ill through fatigue was too high as a result of attending.