to think men shouldn't be midwives

[igglepiggle599]

Just saying, I have nothing against the male midwives themselves. I'm sure they're amazing at what they do and are lovely, kind, caring people. They themselves are not actually the issue I have.

I think many women are uncomfortable with the idea of a male midwife for any number of reasons, and there's a good chance that any given woman will automatically feel uncomfortable when a male midwife walks in. I also find it very disingenuous when people say that they can simply request another midwife. I'm sure that's often true (though maternity units presumable don't have an infinite supply of midwives at any given time, so there's at least a hypothetical scenario in which this wouldn't be possible?). I don't think it's fair that women should be put in a situation where they have to speak up and say that they want a different midwife, particularly when they are extremely vulnerable and possibly in excruciating pain. I'm not a particularly shy or passive person, but I would find that conversation very difficult even when not in labour. I might panic in the moment and wonder whether that amounted to some kind of breach of equality laws, or I might be in such a state that I just didn't want to risk any kind of conflict. Ultimately I would end up with a birth that may well be smooth from a medical point of view but somewhat tainted emotionally, as I would know that an aspect of the situation made me uncomfortable and I hadn't felt able to say anything.

Also, is midwifery even the kind of profession that would actually benefit from gender diversity given that women are the ones who give birth? I'm sure these very talented, compassionate men would be just as valued in a different branch of nursing. Obviously there are male doctors who can end up delivering a baby, but somehow it feels different for men to train in a role that is so intimate.

Very much open to different perspectives.

In fairness, judging from recent debates on these boards, Mumsnet is now lousy with women who're quite comfortable with the Whitehouse being full of rapists, if it means that laws dunking on transwomen get passed. It's a hotbed of GC radicalism. Not sure it's representative of women in the general population.

This thread isn't about whether male midwifes can do the job though. It is about whether some women will feel very uncomfortable and not happy about it but feel unable to say so. Whether or not male midwifes can do the mechanics of the job is irrelevant.

But some female midwives are poor. Just like some male doctors are. I think pp’s are just talking about their personal experiences, just the same as those who have a poor personal experience with male midwives.

That's interesting. I knew a female obstetrician years ago who used to complain that she ended up with more work because many women would not see the male ones. She thought men sometimes picked it as a speciality because they knew they would get less work and wished they would stay out of it.

I guess it's also whether the NHS have the capacity to allow people to pick and choose. Not just women but men who don't want women examining their penis etc.

My partner was originally uncomfortable when he booked an appt to discuss erectile dysfunction and a female GP was assigned. However, to reschedule with a male would've increased the wait time from four to six weeks so he went with the woman in the end and said she was actually very good.

Hi everyone.

Just wanted to post again in case the thread reaches 40 pages before I get a chance to look again.

Just want to say thanks to everyone who posted with really interesting perspectives and personal stories, especially all the posters here for the long haul who had my back!

I probably do think slightly differently about it now - it didn't occur to me that there would be a cohort of women who might actually prefer a male midwife. My main value in this matter is choice, so I suppose if we could ensure that the woman's choice is respected (I guess that's a big if) then male midwives would be fine. Personally it's still not something I would want.

Thanks again! I'll keep checking replies when I can. ☺️

Plus if there’s a shortage of midwives, are they really going to turn some away just because they are men?

Of my three births, I was far more relaxed and confident with the one with only female staff than the others. I found it a completely different - and more positive - experience.

As someone who has experienced male sexual violence I am more secure and relaxed with female only intimate healthcare.

(As for whether they fancy me - anyone finding me attractive in that situation needs their head examining. But of course, sexual offenders are 98% male)

I also think it’s perfectly reasonable for a man to want male-only care for a vasectomy, for example, even though the safety risks to men from women are negligible. Privacy, dignity and feeling secure matters.

A man can be a midwife, but also needs to accept not be all women will be OK being cared for by him. If he has a scintilla of empathy he should understand and accept that.

There isn’t a shortage of midwives because men aren’t encouraged to become one, it’s mainly due to the reduced lack of opportunity - not easy to justify the level of student debt incurred to earn £30k a year. This is probably a natural barrier for men who obviously have much opportunity to earn all the money elsewhere.

at the moment the professional clearly puts natural barriers in place to mens entry - it’s interesting to debate whether that should be codified to legally exclude men (as it is for DV refuges for example) or just continue to allow men in in tiny numbers with the vast majority staying away.

Male doctors performing unnecessary intimate examinations, versus female-led midwifery care where they are a rarity…

And if we decide it’s a bad thing for women in this instance, midwifery, which professions are we, as women, prepared to step away from to honour the preferences of men despite being as skilled as our male colleagues?

Those professions which deal exclusively with men in very vulnerable positions requiring intimate care?

"Male doctors performing unnecessary intimate examinations, versus female-led midwifery care where they are a rarity…"

Nothing to do with gender. Well over half of OBGYN's in the US are women. The difference is whether you're receiving care in a country where clinical practice is evidence based.

BTW - midwives are the lead professionals in many births. They have two patients - the woman and the baby, the latter whose wellbeing they're also responsible for throughout the labour and birth and for several weeks after birth. Therefore their patients aren't exclusively female.

Yes this is something I find interesting

I read a while back about the USA where it was always the norm to have ‘routine’ pelvic exams from your dr from around age 14. They were deciding it was outdated and was actually not really necessary or beneficial to girls and women. I found it interesting that this observation was only suddenly coming about once female obgyn drs were the majority.

The fact most ObGyn are female now doesn’t change the fact that it is historically a male dominated profession and one that is much more interventionist than female-led midwifery.

Where you thinking the US, with its medical-led care and much higher rate of maternal mortality, or the UK was ‘evidenced based’?

So if there aren’t enough female midwives to go round, your choice is a male midwife or no midwife. It would be medically negligent for a hospital not to provide a trained midwife if one was available.

Or male fora where they all talk about not wanting to take their car to a female mechanic

Or far right fora where they talk about not wanting to be treated by a black doctor

Discrimination based on a protected characterisation is never acceptable.

Well I appreciate your clarification. Surely saying everyone and it isn't everyone is misleading?

What - by banning male midwives? Catch a grip. I think we have moved on since those days!

I agree with Nolegusta.

In my logic the woman or man because men are rape victims too, are asked. Plenty of men do work with rape victims z forensic collection nurses doctor etc..

Most my family work in roles supporting adult and children victims of SA.

One is a man who works with children victims. He specialised and is the person's who has the experience and expertise to interview child who tended to be abused by their mothers.

You seem to be completely ignorant of women predators.

My stance isn't anti women. Your stance is you know every woman and what every one of them want.

News flash you don't.

So by your logic we stop men studying midwifery and do what with those practicing?

Equality means equal across the board not building in more inequality.

I was more comfortable with my male midwife why as a woman is my opinion and many more women not valid?

Men are victims of abuse too and not joining up services for victims is not likely to deliver best practice.

That's shite. I don't understand why in 2024 so many women are so closed minded. OK some women have a history that they carry with them but most don't. There's plenty of women in the profession too that shouldn't be but hey let's demonise the tiny proportion of men!

Society hasn't progressed at all has it? Depressing.

Because it's bullshit. A lot of women are perfectly comfortable with having a male HCP. Some of us actively chose it. Why let prudishness - because quite frankly for most of you that's what it is! - stand in the way of perfectly competent professionals just because they're men?

It's ludicrous. It's backward. Discrimination is always wrong.

That's an easy one to answer. Targeting recruitment to a particular demographic is fine when it's necessary to increase representation from that demographic to meet needs. So, for example, if there was a shortage of male care workers, which meant men requiring care couldn't be cared for by a man, it would be acceptable to 'particularly welcome applications from men'. This clearly isn't the case in the midwifery example as there are no male's giving birth who'd want a same sex midwife)
It's also fine when a demographic is under represented for no good reason and/or due to historical gatekeeping of the profession due to discrimination. For example encouraging women to work in engineering. There isn't and never has been any good reason for them not to work in this field and their exclusion is part of a pattern of discrimination that disadvantages women. This does not apply to men who are advantaged in the workplace.
To be clear, I don't support 'positive discrimination', simply removing barriers for people to move into jobs (and this is key) where their particular demographic is disadvantaged and/or needed. Which again rules our men in midwifery.
As long as people apply the principles sensibly and where needed and can justify it, there is no dangerous precedent set.