to think men shouldn't be midwives

[igglepiggle599]

Just saying, I have nothing against the male midwives themselves. I'm sure they're amazing at what they do and are lovely, kind, caring people. They themselves are not actually the issue I have.

I think many women are uncomfortable with the idea of a male midwife for any number of reasons, and there's a good chance that any given woman will automatically feel uncomfortable when a male midwife walks in. I also find it very disingenuous when people say that they can simply request another midwife. I'm sure that's often true (though maternity units presumable don't have an infinite supply of midwives at any given time, so there's at least a hypothetical scenario in which this wouldn't be possible?). I don't think it's fair that women should be put in a situation where they have to speak up and say that they want a different midwife, particularly when they are extremely vulnerable and possibly in excruciating pain. I'm not a particularly shy or passive person, but I would find that conversation very difficult even when not in labour. I might panic in the moment and wonder whether that amounted to some kind of breach of equality laws, or I might be in such a state that I just didn't want to risk any kind of conflict. Ultimately I would end up with a birth that may well be smooth from a medical point of view but somewhat tainted emotionally, as I would know that an aspect of the situation made me uncomfortable and I hadn't felt able to say anything.

Also, is midwifery even the kind of profession that would actually benefit from gender diversity given that women are the ones who give birth? I'm sure these very talented, compassionate men would be just as valued in a different branch of nursing. Obviously there are male doctors who can end up delivering a baby, but somehow it feels different for men to train in a role that is so intimate.

Very much open to different perspectives.

So by your absolutist logic a rape support worker at a woman’s refuge can be man?! I’m sorry, that’s preposterous and callously anti-women…

Almost any good principle can turn bad when applied rigidly and taken to its logical conclusion without consideration of other factors, and i’d argue you’ve done exactly this with sex equality.

The truth is men and women are biologically different, and any concept of equality should recognise that.

In terms of the gender-pay gap, as Birmingham City Council will tell you with their £800m payout, we have laws to ensure equal pay, and those laws are enforced. If there’s an issue with midwifery in that respect (and I’m not sure there is), then the answer is to apply the law, not shoe-horn men into a profession that is quintessentially female in nature.

i realise there is a gender pay gap nonetheless, but that’s societal in nature and largely due to more mothers than fathers taking time out of work to have a family - childless women tend to do very well in the workplace - it’s not something that can, or even should, be readily legislated to remove.

By the same logic, just because you or other women may take issue with it, that’s no reason to remove people from their job who may actually be very good at it.
You have a choice to not have a male midwife in the room. You can even put it in your birthing plan.
But saying men can’t be midwives is no different to saying male GPs, MDs, nurses or Surgeons also cannot treat women. All of these people potentially see you at your most vulnerable, and with your most intimate areas exposed.

The only profession I take issue with, is routine Gynaecology appts. But believe me, if I needed gynae surgery, then I don’t care if they’re male or female as long as they’re the best person for the job

It is clear from many posts on here that many PP:

Prioritise male HCP feelings over those of vulnerable women
That it doesn’t matter if this leads to increase in assaults because NAMALT
That women should not be allowed to say ‘no’ to men or
If women are allowed to say ‘no’ to men then she must only do so when she is feeling at her most vulnerable and must consider the man’s feelings.
That women have no right to feel worried about men despite previous experiences of men
And if you are a rape victim then we are not talking about you so shut up.

And Trans. It is no coincidence Trans has been brought up. This is a movement determined to prioritise men and destroy women’s single sex spaces.

@ProfessionalPirate "A male midwife is no more or less able to determine the woman’s experience in childbirth compared to a female midwife with no kids"

No. But he is not able to determine women's experience generally. Most women will have some empathy with another woman's vulnerability and fear. Regardless of whether they have had children....

That's a reasonable point about wages. However that can and is achieved through equal pay for equal work. There's no need for it to be exactly the same work to be equal. Men could be pushing up the wages at that level of health care work without having to do that one specific job within it. I think there have to be some exceptions, work with survivors of rape and abuse would be one.

You could always read the THIRTY TWO PAGES of posts addressing this exact whataboutery, or reflect on your instinct to force women into repeating the same work over and over to satisfy you and how that fits into the sexism discussion we’re having.

As I said in my last post, the choice is theoretical but not experienced in practice. Like most of the things that go into a birth plan. I may as well have set fire to mine as I walked through the hospital doors.

It’s been pointed out many times on this thread that the role of a midwife encompasses far more than a few intimate examinations, so I don’t think it’s comparable to the role of, say, a surgeon. I had many appointments with my male consultant obstetrician before birth, but he didn’t lay hands on me until I saw him gowned up in the operating theatre. Followed by a single, brief visit on the post-natal ward.

I do wish there were more female gynaecologists. I had a lot of IVF to conceive my children and except for one registrar the fertility consultants were all male. And they all had god complexes whose sole focus was on their stats with no reference at all to my comfort and wellbeing. But that’s a subject for another thread really.

I do get your point and before giving birth would of agreed but in my experience a lot of the most intimate examinations were done by male doctors so I am not sure how that's different.

Get over yourself, nobody is forcing anyone to post on mumsnet. It's not 'work'.

I think you meant to tag @WhimsicalGubbins76

Why was a male doctor giving you intimate examinations when you were pregnant?

@ProfessionalPirate

"It’s been pointed out many times on this thread that the role of a midwife encompasses far more than a few intimate examinations, so I don’t think it’s comparable to the role of, say, a surgeon."

The locus of concern expressed here about male midwives is their involvement in intimate and invasive processes like vaginal examinations. Somehow - surgeons who are also putting their hands INSIDE your body - not a problem.

Now you're saying that this isn't the issue. The issue is what - a male midwife comforting you? Explaining things to you?

In some countries vaginal examinations are a routine part of antenatal care.

Not in the UK thankfully.

"Most women will have some empathy with another woman's vulnerability and fear."

Five minutes on mumsnet reading people's birth stories will show you the LEGION of gripes around midwives being uncaring and unsympathetic. I think the idea that men are fundamentally incapable of empathy towards women is gross.

I agree. It's such a vulnerable situation for the woman especially if she has trauma from previous male abuse or sexual assault. And lots do!

And then because of being in a vulnerable position it can be difficult to speak up and advocate for yourself.

I don't think they should be banned but it should be made very clear to the woman that she has a choice and has to activitly give consent.

@PuffinCliffs do you want men banned from all professions where they'll be working with vulnerable women? So no male dentists? Doctors? Midwives? Therapists? Police? Childcare workers? Social workers?

That's absolutely not what the OP is arguing.

The OP is arguing that men shouldn't be allowed to enter the profession of midwifery.

And about half of posters here want men banned from this profession.

Wouldn’t that mean it is up to the government to incentivise midwifery towards women so that there are more women who want to go into it in the first place?

There are less than 200 male midwives in all of the UK (as of 2017 so could be more but I doubt by much) and over 1,000 hospitals so how would it be a struggle for most women to be cared by a female midwife?

I was ready to agree with you. But then I thought of all the health care professionals I have seen, females tend to be quite unsympathetic and don't take you seriously. Male health professionals seem to take your health concerns more seriously. However, that's my own experience.

I’m not saying that intimate examinations aren’t a concern, only that they are part of a wider picture. I’ve described in my last post that my experience of consultant led care was that it was very hands-off for the most part until the very end when I went into theatre. And theatre was a completely different experience to the sort of intimate involvement I had from midwives during my 36 hour labour.

Everyone will have different feelings and priorities, but another significant one for me was breastfeeding. I had a 5 day stay in hospital after my first was born and had a very difficult time getting started with breastfeeding. I think if it had been a male midwife coming in to pull my breasts around and milk me into my baby’s mouth etc I would have thrown in the towel immediately and used formula.

I can’t say that a midwife ‘comforting’ or ‘explaining things to me’ was ever a consideration, no. Please feel free to try and think of other ways to invalidate my feelings though.

Once you’ve seen one vagina, you’ve seen them all 🤷🏼‍♀️ I didn’t have a male midwife, but I’ve had plenty of intimate medical procedures done by men.

I’m sure it wouldn’t be a struggle for most women to be cared for by a female midwife as it stands currently. But I believe that all women are entitled to a choice. It only takes one male midwife on a staffing rota to potentially make this a problem. There are posters on this thread who have experienced this choice being taking away from them. This is unacceptable, even if it is rare.

I agree with you OP. A male midwife delivered one of my children and I wasn't comfortable with it at all but didn't feel in a position to object. I think it did effect the birth.

Nobody asks if you would prefer a male or female midwife though. You would have to object which is difficult to do anyway but especially if you are not sure if there is a female midwife available. If there were no men in the profession, it wouldn't be an issue.

Whilst I support choice for women to reject male healthcare professionals, unfortunately choice is a luxury the NHS is not always able to facilitate.

I had a Male Midwife and Male Obstectric Consultant at my third birth and I speak as a childhood and adult sexual abuse victim - I know not all males are abusers.