to think men shouldn't be midwives

[igglepiggle599]

Just saying, I have nothing against the male midwives themselves. I'm sure they're amazing at what they do and are lovely, kind, caring people. They themselves are not actually the issue I have.

I think many women are uncomfortable with the idea of a male midwife for any number of reasons, and there's a good chance that any given woman will automatically feel uncomfortable when a male midwife walks in. I also find it very disingenuous when people say that they can simply request another midwife. I'm sure that's often true (though maternity units presumable don't have an infinite supply of midwives at any given time, so there's at least a hypothetical scenario in which this wouldn't be possible?). I don't think it's fair that women should be put in a situation where they have to speak up and say that they want a different midwife, particularly when they are extremely vulnerable and possibly in excruciating pain. I'm not a particularly shy or passive person, but I would find that conversation very difficult even when not in labour. I might panic in the moment and wonder whether that amounted to some kind of breach of equality laws, or I might be in such a state that I just didn't want to risk any kind of conflict. Ultimately I would end up with a birth that may well be smooth from a medical point of view but somewhat tainted emotionally, as I would know that an aspect of the situation made me uncomfortable and I hadn't felt able to say anything.

Also, is midwifery even the kind of profession that would actually benefit from gender diversity given that women are the ones who give birth? I'm sure these very talented, compassionate men would be just as valued in a different branch of nursing. Obviously there are male doctors who can end up delivering a baby, but somehow it feels different for men to train in a role that is so intimate.

Very much open to different perspectives.

He'll always remember you!

I’m not sure that what women do in other parts of the world is overly relevant to be honest. I’ve had a quick google though and it seems that all the countries with the best pregnancy/birth outcomes certainly do use midwives.

This isn't true. Being uncomfortable with this isn't anything to do with an individual or their intentions. The feeling of discomfort is built on a lifetime of experiences that inform our feelings.

Women shouldn't have to push down these feelings when they are already feeling vulnerable and in pain.

Maybe some women haven't had as many experiences with men that have led them to build up such strong protective instincts, they are very lucky. Those women should have a think about the strong boundaries that they do have in life and consider how they would feel if they were not respected at a vulnerable time. Just saying "nope, fine with me" comes across as very dismissive of other women's experiences.

If that's what you took from my reply then you really have more issues than I could ever help you with.

You're speaking as if it's a global thing, this fear of a man in the room when you're exposed and vulnerable.

So it's not a global thing? There are places in the world where women don't experience any fear of men when exposed and vulnerable?

Where are these wonderful places?

And for the record, I have used health care systems regularly in three different countries and encountered creepy male health care professionals in all of them. Not all men, some are lovely, and maybe if I'd had a wonderfully camp mascara-wearing male midwife I'd be sold on the idea of men being sooo much better at midwifery, but some men will go into health care for the wrong reasons, and that is a fact.

3 male doctors delivered DS1 as it was an emergency (5 midwives were present too) and I didn’t care one bit what gender they were. I understand some women wouldn’t be comfortable, and if i was male, i’m not sure i’d want to go into a career where i’d be regularly asked for a female to replace me. Can’t be easy. There are many male gynae’s though, again I’d be fine with that.

Using this logic, female nurses should not catheterise male patients, and given that there are so many body specific diseases, illnesses and treatments, some of which cross-over, only female nurses or doctors can care for females, and vice-versa. Then who cares for trans patients?
You cannot articulate why you believe there is a difference between a male doctor furtiling around your bits, but not a male midwife, so you have no argument.

My DS was delivered by a man. I could not care less who was delivering my baby, I was more concerned with having a safe birth.

Its really not necessary to attempt to belittle people by claiming they have 'issues' when you're unable to explain yourself in response to their questions. I asked what the modern thinking was. If you don't know the answer you need only to say so. No need to pretend to think there's something wrong with me.

You cannot articulate why you believe there is a difference between a male doctor furtiling around your bits, but not a male midwife, so you have no argument.

I think any woman who has given birth in a hospital system would understand the difference - a doctor is there to deliver the baby, a midwife is there through the labour and postnatal care, helping with breastfeeding, checkups, support as well as delivering the baby. They are different roles, you are often alone with the midwife, you aren't really alone with the doctor (and it's becoming an increasingly female dominated specialty anyway.)

My reply stands.

Ideally everyone should be able to request procedures are performed by someone of the sane sex, yes. Unfortunately due to historical gatekeeping there aren't enough female doctors while women are over represented in nursing to always make this possible. People then have no choice because the need for treatment will typically be prioritised over their preference. However, this isn't optimum. In an ideal situation doctors and nurses should be representative of the patients served so men and women have a choice of a same sex HCP. Following this thinking, there isn't any need for male midwives at all, as a staff pool consisting entirely of women is fully representative of the sex of the community they serve.

I've argued many times why the role of a midwife specifically is different to the situations you mentioned above, as have many other posters. The situations simply don't compare in terms of privacy, exposure and the extent to which the male midwife can determine the woman's experience during an extremely vulnerable time.

I wonder whether the uber medicalisation of birth is partly responsible for this inability to see that giving birth isn't something that is done to you, like a catheter or a vaginal examination. Birth is something that you do yourself. Because it's hard to do, we have midwives there to help you. The success of a birth crucially depends on the woman being comfortable and safe. All this talk of medical professionals looking at your "bits" implies that a midwife is there to do the birth for you, as if women just rock up, strip, and lie back while someone else extracts the baby. That simply isn't what a birth is like. Sure, things can happen during the birth that escalated birth into a medical emergency - emergency C sections, stuck babies, drops in movement - all of these things escalate birth from something the woman does with help, to something that counts as a medical procedure that you need professionals to step in for.

If a patient feeling vulnerable and unsafe during a catheter lead to the procedure going wrong (and in a worse case scenario, to the man and his children dying) - and if we lived in a society where many men felt unsafe while naked and in pain around women - then you bet your bottom fucking dollar that the conversation around women inserting catheters would be had.

Women are fucked either way, aren't they? When our births are medical emergencies, there's pressure to just get on with it. And when they're not, there's pressure to just accept the same standards as in a medical procedure.

As usual-women's feelings are being belittled and mocked.

Incidentally, I also think that if a man would prefer to be catheterised or have any other intimate procedure done by a man then if at all possible that should happen.

Considering a lot of doctors are male and you may have a doctor involved in your birth if you're high risk or have complications, it doesn't really matter imo if midwives are male or female as you may end up with a mix of both at your birth regardless! That being said if you feel particularly uncomfortable with the idea of a male midwife or doctor attending your birth you should be given the right to request female only staff assuming there are some available.

This. With the involvement of doctors (always male in those days) in birth in the uk came prevalent use of stirrups without medical need- women were put into stirrups for their whole birth, purely for the ease of the male doctor doing rounds and being easily able to see their vagina for progress at all times.

This is what the introduction of both doctors, and men, did to child birth.

this isn’t about individual men (that should be obvious, but clearly isn’t from the posts on the thread) it’s about men infiltrating a female profession- one of, if not the, last.

This is actually quite an ignorant statement to make.
A male midwife is no more or less able to determine the woman’s experience in childbirth compared to a female midwife with no kids.
Lots of female midwives have never given birth, so by this logic, as they can’t understand or appreciate what the birthing mother is going through, should they also not be midwives?
Should an oncologist not be an oncologist if they’ve never had cancer?
Should a neurologist not be a neurologist if they’ve never had any neurological issues?
Do you see what I’m getting at?

It's a tricky one. Early labour it would probably be a no. However when DS got stuck in a home birth I couldn't have cared if the midwives or paramedics who attended were aliens or men at that point (were actually all female).

52% of people on the thread agree with the OP. And that's without taking into account the votes in the other direction from men who are here to protect male rights. The women who don't agree with the OP 'don't mind'. So on one hand we have less than 200 men who want to be midwives and less than 50% of women who don't mind if they are. On the other hand we have over 50% of women who actually object to them. So why would we being going with the first group about a women's issue?

It wouldn't bother me. When I had my DS I had 2 female midwives, then 2 female nurses as well, a male anaesthetist and 2 male doctors. It was a complicated and difficult birth. I also let a troop of student doctors in to have a look.

I didn't care what gender they all were as long as they were competent and we both came out of it alive. They were all brilliant. My only bad experience was with a female doctor.

I see what you're getting at; I simply disagree.

I'm thinking less about the abilities of the midwives and more about the patients. A woman who doesn't feel able to speak up or feels coerced into accepting a male midwife could have an extremely competent male midwife but still come away with a bad experience.

I think we're talking about different things here. You are preoccupied with the quality of the midwives (and you seem to feel I'm arguing that they are less compassionate and knowledgeable, hence the repeated argument about midwives who aren't mothers being the same as male midwives). I'm thinking more about the needs of the women. 52% of people have so far voted that I'm NBU, so you can't pretend it's a tiny minority who are affected by the presence of men in midwifery, regardless of the competence of those men.

I don't see that at all. The example the poster gave is as close as is humanly possible.

I really object to determination of a role by sex it is backwards and unfair to plenty of men who are midwives.

I had one, I found him brilliant and a lot more respectful of my wants over women who had the 'come on every woman does this" attitude.

I fully understand and respect a woman's choice but I don't agree in limiting a job and that is what it is a job by sex.

I find it concerning to have a woman tell other women we shouldn't agree to a male midwife!

Because men are Very Important, you know. Their wants override our wants, needs, trauma and biology.

I have never suggested to another woman that they shouldn't accept a male midwife. I asked a question to gauge how many people feel the same way as me. Turns out it's a lot.