to think men shouldn't be midwives

[igglepiggle599]

Just saying, I have nothing against the male midwives themselves. I'm sure they're amazing at what they do and are lovely, kind, caring people. They themselves are not actually the issue I have.

I think many women are uncomfortable with the idea of a male midwife for any number of reasons, and there's a good chance that any given woman will automatically feel uncomfortable when a male midwife walks in. I also find it very disingenuous when people say that they can simply request another midwife. I'm sure that's often true (though maternity units presumable don't have an infinite supply of midwives at any given time, so there's at least a hypothetical scenario in which this wouldn't be possible?). I don't think it's fair that women should be put in a situation where they have to speak up and say that they want a different midwife, particularly when they are extremely vulnerable and possibly in excruciating pain. I'm not a particularly shy or passive person, but I would find that conversation very difficult even when not in labour. I might panic in the moment and wonder whether that amounted to some kind of breach of equality laws, or I might be in such a state that I just didn't want to risk any kind of conflict. Ultimately I would end up with a birth that may well be smooth from a medical point of view but somewhat tainted emotionally, as I would know that an aspect of the situation made me uncomfortable and I hadn't felt able to say anything.

Also, is midwifery even the kind of profession that would actually benefit from gender diversity given that women are the ones who give birth? I'm sure these very talented, compassionate men would be just as valued in a different branch of nursing. Obviously there are male doctors who can end up delivering a baby, but somehow it feels different for men to train in a role that is so intimate.

Very much open to different perspectives.

Again @6 weeks after for C-section nothing internal.
Before birth, no internals for either but masses of scans ( 1 a week with twins at the end)
( I wonder if lots of internals is more a recent thing ?)

I can’t even begin to imagine what three failed inductions must have been like…. that must have been horrendous for you

Are you really so lacking in grey matter that you cannot understand that these women are not the ones I am talking about?

So, tell me, other than your desire to accommodate some men who really really want to be midwives and only that extremely specific branch of medicine will do, how does it benefit anyone for women to get over their 'hang ups'? Because, if there was some excellent case for the inclusion of men in this particular discipline, that it somehow led to better outcomes, more relaxed mothers, healthier babies; or even if men on the whole were disadvantaged in the work place and needed some help to increase their equality...well yes, arguably unless there was a 'valid reason' (and i think a woman's preference is valid) they should be included.
But I honestly can't think of a single advantage to women or babies in having a man take on this role instead of a woman. And if we can just leave mens wishes to one side for a moment and centre the people who matter most in this situation, can you?

??? I don’t believe they ‘just want to get into knickers’ at all

I was just pointing out that since SO many women have past trauma from males then it is perfectly acceptable and understandable that so many don’t feel comfortable being treated by one in intimate and vulnerable circumstances. Often just for the fact that it feels triggering and uncomfortable, it’s not because they believe the man definitely has nefarious intentions 🙄

Personally it genuinely wouldn't bother me as there would always be someone else in the room and I'd just want the best medical care I could get I wouldn't care if it was from a man or a woman.

I do think that to avoid a confronting situation during your booking in appointments you should be asked if you consent to receiving care from a male though.

I also don't think any biological men (who are not working) should be allowed on the postnatal ward outside of visiting hours.

So women must reveal their trauma in order to receive single sex care?

I'm genuinely confused about this "ongoing care and support" that people are saying midwives offer.

When I gave birth (admittedly quite a long time ago) it was made clear that you were very unlikely to have the same midwife looking after you during labour as you'd seen in the community for booking appointments etc.

Once on the post natal ward it was yet again a totally different team who were responsible for your care, all of whom worked shifts.

Post natal care was handed over to the health visitors after nine days and I had extensive support from the health visiting team )and again, I'm saying team because it was rarely the same person.

As I said, I had twins. I was in for a week after their birth for various reasons including one struggling with weight significantly. I must have spoken to over 30 midwives in that week if not more.

Did other mums have ongoing care from one midwife?

It was a bit shit at the time! Back in the mists of time now though.

I had lots of internal scans in the years of having infertility investigations. Had some again in and around my two miscarriages. When I got pregnant for the 5th time, I had an internal scan every week from week 4 until week 10/11. That was 21 years ago!

I guess that's partly why I don't have any qualms around professional gynae/obs focussing their attention on my undercarriage lol, and I struggle to understand the vehement objections to it. I did whatever I had to do to have my family and it didn't come easily!

We have toilets and changing spaces away from males for reasons of safety, dignity and privacy- not because all men are evil predators. For some women they would like that to extend to healthcare situations where they are vulnerable and naked. It really shouldn’t be an issue.

Stop twisting things. I didn't say that either.

Women can clearly choose if they wish, and they should be able to.

What I'm finding difficult to comprehend is the blind "oh I wouldn't have a male midwife"!! I doubt 50% of this thread is traumatised!

It doesn’t even mean women think a male midwife will harm them, it’s just about many women feeling more comfortable, when they’re undressed and vulnerable, with other women.

I also don’t want to share toilets and changing rooms with men. I feel more comfortable with women in those situations.

There are women currently around the world who are forbidden to be seen in a health care setting by men. I think any pretext that takes away a woman’s right to choose who treats her is dangerous.

It also feels like a huge backwards step to reintroduce the idea of jobs ‘for women’ and jobs ‘for men’.

I think choice is incredibly important, and advocacy, and surely this would actually risk removing that.

Ok, I am no longer in having children mode but I'd rather have a competent male midwife than someone like Letby or the incompetent female midwife who was more interested in looking at charts instead of listening to my DD and myself so the 2nd grandchild was born (with no medical professional in the room because they went out room for a discussion) with the umbilical cord round his neck. I kept saying, my DD is going to give birth quickly, she did last time. I was the only person in the room when she was in acute distress and the head came out with cord round his neck. Give me a competent midwife over that distress any time. I don't care if they are male

I do question why men would choose to be a midwife. I wouldn't want a male midwife either, or a male nurse doing my smear test.

I’m all for choice

It’s worth mentioning though that we do have a huge lack of midwives.
So rather we should consider this and its obvious from this thread ( thanks @igglepiggle599 ) that a lot of women are fine with it.

So for those that are fine ….all good
Those that aren’t….. there’s women free for you now as the male midwife’s are dealing with those that are fine

The best outcome for mothers and babies overall is to have more trained staff….what ever sex they are.

That's exactly what some posters here are saying. They must have nefarious intentions if they enter the profession as a male!

Nobody has suggested that women shouldn't have a choice. The premise of this thread is that men should be excluded from the profession, which is patently ridiculous.

The equalities act allows for the restriction of certain roles to one sex or the other in specific circumstances already. It hasn't become a slippery slope. Preventing men from becoming midwives will be neither here nor there for womens equality (which is all we need to be concerned about given men are in no danger of losing their advantage any time soon).

Why does it matter if 50% of the women on this thread aren’t comfortable having a male? I wouldn’t be comfortable but I accept that others are happy to have a male midwife even if I can’t understand or relate to that at all 🤷‍♀️

Also because some men are predators. Mixed sex changing rooms with cubicles in leisure centres have been found to result in sex assaults 18 times higher than single sex changing rooms. Of course NAMALT and most women will be fine in a cube in a mixed sex space but eighteen times as many won’t be as in single sex spaces. Why does their suffering not count? Why should we not seek to avoid it?

Interesting point - thank you for this.

Maybe an alternative scenario would be for women to be specifically asked at their antenatal appointments (rather than just being expected to say no to a male midwife on the spot)?

As far as I was concerned, when that bowling ball was coming out my vagina, I didn’t care who saw what, I was fully naked, and just wanted to get the baby hate and the pain to stop!! Couldn’t give two hoots who the midwife was

This is why choice is important. That is your choice. My choice is simply to always have the best person for the job. Obviously you don’t always know who you are getting but I’ve had a female nurse carry out a painful smear, and a male doctor do one which I barely felt. I know who I would rather do it next time and will probably try to book in with him again.

There are 33 rapes and sexual assaults every week in NHS hospitals in England.

Ask yourself why you think that way. Do you think men wanting to go into those professions are perverts?

I do find it strange that a man would choose to pursue a career in midwifery. I think it’s totally different to being a obstetrician or even a gynaecologist - those men have pursued a medical career, likely done a rotation in that area as a junior doctor by chance and then found they have a passion or skill for a particular type of surgery, it had a better the work/life balance (in the case of gynae), enjoyed the mix of medicine & surgery and decided to stick with it. There are a wide range of reasons.

With midwifery, before even working in that field a man has come to an abstract decision to go off and train as a midwife. It’s not exactly a multifaceted career. I’m not saying that their motivations are nefarious but it IS odd of all the careers to choose.

Personally, I wouldn’t be worried a man was looking at me sexually, I just wouldn’t want him seeing me completely exposed, shitting myself, at my most vulnerable.

I feel the same about men providing women with personal care, especially on elderly women with dementia who can’t consent.