to think men shouldn't be midwives

[igglepiggle599]

Just saying, I have nothing against the male midwives themselves. I'm sure they're amazing at what they do and are lovely, kind, caring people. They themselves are not actually the issue I have.

I think many women are uncomfortable with the idea of a male midwife for any number of reasons, and there's a good chance that any given woman will automatically feel uncomfortable when a male midwife walks in. I also find it very disingenuous when people say that they can simply request another midwife. I'm sure that's often true (though maternity units presumable don't have an infinite supply of midwives at any given time, so there's at least a hypothetical scenario in which this wouldn't be possible?). I don't think it's fair that women should be put in a situation where they have to speak up and say that they want a different midwife, particularly when they are extremely vulnerable and possibly in excruciating pain. I'm not a particularly shy or passive person, but I would find that conversation very difficult even when not in labour. I might panic in the moment and wonder whether that amounted to some kind of breach of equality laws, or I might be in such a state that I just didn't want to risk any kind of conflict. Ultimately I would end up with a birth that may well be smooth from a medical point of view but somewhat tainted emotionally, as I would know that an aspect of the situation made me uncomfortable and I hadn't felt able to say anything.

Also, is midwifery even the kind of profession that would actually benefit from gender diversity given that women are the ones who give birth? I'm sure these very talented, compassionate men would be just as valued in a different branch of nursing. Obviously there are male doctors who can end up delivering a baby, but somehow it feels different for men to train in a role that is so intimate.

Very much open to different perspectives.

I appreciate everyone is different and has a right to their preferences, but do you never do routine medical checkups? Every time I've been to a doctor for an annual checkup (in US) the doctor does a check of health of relationship, sexually active or no, diet, exercise, smoking/ alcohol/ drug use, mental health, bowel habits, sleep, menstrual history, vital signs, simple eyesight test, check for halitosis and dental hygiene, and more.

My 'GP' doctors work in a large practice and I am seen by both men and women. The answers to the questions I get asked go into my notes, where every practitioner can see my answers for as long as I live and possibly longer, since it's all on the electronic medical records system.

Likewise, I've pooped while delivering babies as I'm sure women have from time immemorial, and as I'm sure everyone but the most naive newbie HCP in obstetrics is aware.

Looking at the wider picture, nothing we do or say at this point in time is truly private, even in our own homes if we own certain Amazon, Apple, or Google products.

Do you think the lack of male entry into midwifery is holding back our progress in achieving equality at work then?

I think we have bigger fish to fry in that game before we worry about the menz not getting to pull babies out

But logically that doesn't make sense! The male midwife probably knows as much about breastfeeding as any of his colleagues who haven't done it themselves!

They're not regarding your tit as a sexual object you know - it's a baby feeding device!

You deal with the fact that you can’t know anything about anyone by telling yourself men are more likely to do you harm than women, so you’re going to trust women and distrust men? That’s certainly a position.

A midwife is statistically unlikely to ‘do you harm’, full stop. If we’re going by statistics, then the stats do not back your initial premise that men shouldn’t be midwives. So, no, statistics have nothing to do with what you’re saying.

You’re clearly very entrenched in this position and it has nothing to do with logic. So, I’ll just say YABVVU and leave you to it.

The thing is, there isn’t really a discipline that focuses entirely on men’s genitals like that. A doctor working on a penis would probably be a urologist, but they cover both the male and female urinary systems.

Yeah, this is why I say women should be allowed to refuse a male midwife (or male health visitor.) For all the reasons you mention. A woman feeling uncomfortable with a man, is a good enough reason to request a woman.

This thread is full of statistics from various posters about the percentages of women who have experienced assault at the hands of men, and the worryingly high numbers of men in the medical profession who harm women. There is no shortage of statistics.

I came into this with an open mind and am certainly not 'entrenched'. Every post here is interesting and unique and is re-shaping my view.

Are there any jobs where the sole responsibility is the examination of and operation on male genitalia? As in, that is all the person does? No surgery on women involved in the role? If so, then absolutely these roles should be performed by men if its the preference of the patient group.
It would be an extremely specific and niche role, so restricting that one job to men only wouldn't damage women. Just like not indulging a man's wish to make a living from delivering babies doesn't harm men.
But as always, if a man wants to do something we must fall over ourselves to accommodate him. Even if that makes women feel uncomfortable, embarrassed, like they're making a fuss, and can result in other women having to pull double shifts to cover for him when his services are declined.

I would have said no to a male midwife. Not all female midwives are good but they’re unlikely to be a threat in the way that men can be. I’d also always choose a female gynaecologist for the same reason.

That's one of the things a birthing partner is there for - to advocate.

I think it's part of the issue, as is the lack of men in nurseries. Ultimately, I believe banning men from a job role would open up the real risk of bans coming in for women in certain job roles too.

So should urologists only be male?

Nope. Does such a job exist for women?

I wouldn't have any issue with a male midwife 🤷🏻‍♀️

I laboured with three different women, a male doctor delivered my baby, I couldn't have cared less.

Personally I prefer men for all things gynecological as I’ve had some issues when I’ve seen women. In my experience they can be more abrupt and when doing things, it tends to hurt more.
Also I’ve had better experiences with male midwives when giving birth.

Urologists deal with both sexes.

That's actually a really good point!

Requesting a female midwife is a bit of a moot point in a scenario where you’re striving for equality- at present you can fairly easily refuse a male midwife. If they were 50% of the staff, that would be difficult.

and of course, I doubt the history of midwifery would continue to be respected in such a scenario so midwife would be replaced with “birthing co-ordinator” or similar and hundreds of years of female power would be diminished

I haven't read the whole thread (have read OP's posts) but honestly I think your viewpoint is based in sexism and explained by unconscious bias.

You would be uncomfortable with a male midwife because it is historically and typically female dominated, therefore a male midwife is not what you expect. You have fears of women's comfortability however these fears don't extend to male consultants. Why is that? The male consultants have the same access to the labouring woman as the male midwife, and are statistically just as likely to commit as sexual offence as the male midwife.

I am not saying that you're generally sexist btw! I'm saying that we have a set of unconscious expectations as a result of our experiences within society, and things that meet those expectations are fine, whereas those that don't seem alarming.

That’s unusual. I conceived my children after years of IVF. Consultant led for all pregnancies, many serious complications, EMCS and ELCS. The majority of my contact with HCPs throughout was still with midwives, not consultants. Consultant care is in addition to, not instead of, midwife care. They are two completely different jobs and one cannot take over the role of the other.

I certainly never had my consultant help me to get the baby latched on to breast feed, or visit me in my home to check my stitches etc etc

But they do that before and at your 6 week checkup!

I'd three failed attempts at inducing labour first time so you can imagine the finger situation!!!

I understand your point, but my objection has nothing to do with it not being 'what I expect', and I think that's true of most women who would be uncomfortable with a male midwife.

I don't think this is an 'unconscious bias' kind of issue.

If you had severe postpartum bleeding at home, would you be asking for female paramedics?

There was a thread on here years back, where OP was due an operation, and asked if all the theatre staff could be female only. Answer was no.

I don't think they shouldn't be allowed full stop as many would not object and I do t think we can say "Sorry this job isn't for you" as where does it stop? But tbh I'd personally prefer a female one if I had to choose. Of course I wouldn't quibble if in transition. My birth had many men present and hardly any women, and like a lot of births, I felt pretty passive in it. It was nice to have a female midwife for that reason alone. I'd also imagine/hope that anyone with a strong view (eg for religious reasons or very sadly sexual abuse and trauma) would be encouraged to make this very clear from early on to ensure they aren't put in a position where they have to speak up and say "Actually I asked for a female midwife."

I think my view is also coloured by a very unpleasant vaginal examination in labour. It really was not conducive to getting the oxytocin flowing to help progress my labour - the opposite in fact.