Caused a scene in a cafe today. Now wondering if we were unreasonable

[pennytoffees]

I'll start off by saying I'm welsh, born and bred and speak the language as does my entire family.

We visited (my mother and I) a local cafe today and had such an awful experience. We haven't been there in years but don't remember it being that bad. We don't sound welsh and spoke to them in English so they obviously assumed that we were tourists. They were very cold towards us.

Anyway, we placed our order and another staff member brought the food over to us. We asked for some sauces to which she replied "go and ask her" and then pointed to the woman at the till. There was a queue and we didn't want the food to go cold so asked her if she could get us some. She gave me a filthy look but reluctantly handed them over. I just want to add that at no point did she say that the sauces cost extra so we just presumed that they were free like most cafes/restaurants. It turns out that they weren't (to be honest I think it's pretty greedy charging customers for sachets of sauce when they've spent £14 on a meal and I don't know any other local businesses that do it but thats another argument). We would have paid with no issues had she explained that to us.

The main issue is that she came over to a couple sat behind us and started talking about us in Welsh thinking that we didn't understand. Funnily enough they asked for some sauces and she gave them for free but when we asked it was an issue. The only difference is they were clearly locals. At this point we'd had enough so I asked to speak with the manager and she asked me "why, is there a problem?". I said "yes but I'm not discussing it with you". Anyway, he came over and I explained what had happened. She was on the other side of the counter and came over and said "I'm sorry, I wasn't talking about you". She wasn't close enough to hear us talking so obviously knew what she had done wrong and was just trying to cover her tracks.

He apologised and we left it at that, didn't even finish our food as we felt so uncomfortable. To be honest I don't think he knew what to do but after reading the reviews online, it's clearly a regular occurrence and he doesn't care how his staff behaves or treats customers. It was embarrassing as everyone was looking at us. We don't like confrontation or causing trouble but felt we had to confront her. I believe we would have been treated differently had they known we were welsh. I was actually embarrassed to be welsh to be honest. They forget it's the tourists keeping them in business.

AIBU? Would you have confronted her or just walked away?

I had an English friend who owned a shop in Anglesey, she told me that many Welsh visitors used to mess her around and talk about her negatively. She even heard one couple planning to make her fetch things from the top shelf around the shop, she would have to use a ladder. When they asked for an item off of the top shelf, she replied in perfect Welsh, "I'm not playing your game."

In contrast, I lived on the island for four years as a child, I don't recall having problems and my parents never spoke about any trouble.

Except if you read the op and the follow ups, there’s absolutely no xenophobia shown. Not one shred of evidence that the op was treated poorly because of being presumed to be English. That part is completely of theirs and others narrative. Rereading the op, 90% of the cause of irritation was from miscommunication and the op not bothering to go to the place the sauces were given out - even though the waitress initially said to go to the till, the op still wanted the waitress to sort it out for them. I’m not saying the waitress then moaning about them is right, but this is very obviously a case of both sides being rude.

The waitress knew the Welsh speaking couple. OP says it herself. Maybe she gave them the sauce free because she’s mates with them or they come so often to the cafe. Why must it be that she gave them the sauces and not OP because she hates the English?! What a conclusion to leap to. The waitress says in Welsh that the sauces weren’t free, she doesn’t go round bad mouthing the English at any point

I would’ve just had a very loud and pointed conversation in Welsh and watch the waitress cringe.

We had a similar experience in Anglesey and yes, we were tourists. In our case when customers heard us speaking English they spoke Welsh. A warm welcome in the hillside . . . . not.
we haven’t been back there since.

Why would she cringe though? All she said was that op thought the sauce was free which she had.

I moved to Wales not long ago and everyone is so lovely. I am not English and always have a positive experince with Welsh speakers.

lol how dare first language Welsh speakers speak their own language to each other. I would never think I should go into a shop in eg France and all the French should immediately speak English simply because I have wandered in. Beggars belief the sheer entitlement of so many on this thread

I've heard about this reaction in some parts of Wales from friends who go walking and holiday in the area. Not an unusual occurrence by all accounts.

There isn't just some people like to look for and confirm lazy stereo types and stoke trouble and division.

I am British, with first language English, but I live on Anglesey where OP seems to have got in trouble. It is true, there are many British people here with first language Welsh. When I'm with them they flip back and forth Welsh English all the time. I have worked all over the country, but currently work across the North Wales coast. I can 100% tell you the OP is wrong, and there is no real world difference from Deeside to Holyhead. Some people are British first language English, some British first language Welsh. There are many slight accents which are interesting along the coast, but you cannot generally tell from their accent which is their first language.

Equally there is no hatred of English and/or tourists. There may be a few 'mouthy' idiots with opinions that don't reflect reality and don't stand up to scrutiny. Most thinking people know exactly the benefits tourists of all nationalities bring, to everyone, but equally the compromise than is needed to benefit.

I have used 'British' one purpose in this post because that is what we are, look at your passport if you have any doubt. There is a place for the 'Home Nations' it's during the rugby. We all sit together during the rugby and cheer what ever side we want. As long as the game ends 48:50 in extra time, everyone is happy, and the celebrate great sport together.

That attitude is fairly common in North Wales. I avoid holidaying in Wales for that reason, despite the fact my maternal great grandparents were Welsh which means I have Welsh heritage.

They may have also paid for theirs but had forgotten to put it on the tray. Imagine hating the English so much you’re basing your entire career on withholding condiments from them. Must be worth minimum wage in how much self satisfaction you get watching them eat a dry chip…

I agree. Especially when they were speaking English as we walked in then switch to Welsh.

Having spent two months in France this summer, you’re right, they do speak French. And what they also do is make you feel very welcome as they realise tourists spend money.

Not entitlement, just disappointment that the Welsh make it so obvious they don’t want the English.

So I’ll respect the wishes and not visit again.

My paternal great grandparents were Italian, shall I visit just to say how pissed off I am they’re all speaking in Italian and they’re making my tiny percent of southern European blood boil 🤣

Similar happened to me in Hebrides woman in shop and local customer talking about me buying food I thoroughly enjoyed their discomfort when I spoke Gaelic !

I don’t think you were unreasonable, especially as others have had a similar experience. A friend of mine is Welsh, has an obviously Welsh name, speaks English with a Welsh accent and speaks Welsh. He went to somewhere in Wales where he wasn’t known, booked in then heard himself being talked about in Welsh and realised that they thought he was English and was being put to the back of the queue. He didn’t react but just said, when he left “thank you for being so helpful”. In Welsh.

It’s probably best you don’t. Welsh people often flip flop from English to Welsh naturally and use what’s called Wenglish where English words are interspersed in the Welsh. Second language English speakers (such as many folk on Anglesey) often do not feel comfortable speaking in full English to each other as it doesn’t feel natural. If you’re likely to take offence at that then it’s probably for the best.

An excellent example of why people find the English unpleasant.

You don’t sound unreasonable. Many years ago something similar happened to my grandparents. English people in Germany. My great grandad was a tailor. My grandad was visiting Germany and trying on a jacket. He asked in English if they had one with more pockets. The shop keeper thinking they didn’t speak German said to his colleague ‘how many pockets does a man need’. Quick as a flash granny said in German ‘my husband will have as many pockets as he likes’. Must be 30+ years later we still laugh about the shock the man must have had.

you don’t sound rude or unreasonable. People shouldn’t presume anything and people working in customer service should be polite in any language.

don’t overthink it.

@pennytoffees Christ, was this in Caernarvon?! We had a similar experience many years ago when I and another staff member, took some services users on holiday to Wales for a week.
We visited Caernarvon for the day, found a cafe at lunch time and placed our food orders. One of the clients just wanted 3 sausages, no chips, no beans, just the sausages, but was prepared to pay for the full meal. There was a lot of back and forth with me, about not wanting the other stuff on the plate... We sat for 15 minutes, while the woman and another person in the cafe at the time discussed us in Welsh (we were all English!) as they kept looking suspiciously in our direction. She then went into the kitchen, came back out 10 minutes later, stood in front of us and said "We're closed" and then crossed her arms and waited for us to collect all our stuff up and leave!!! It was just after 12pm when we went in and she didn't lock the door when we left!!! There were no issues with the 4 service users we were with, we were all sat quietly, discussing what we were doing next! This was the days before Google reviews etc, or they'd have got a scathing review! Rude as hell!

Thank you for the explanation.
Speak English / Welsh to make tourists feel uncomfortable then fill your boots.
As I commented previously, I won’t be visiting again.

Lots of cafes charge for sachets of sauce. Some round here charge 10p some 15p. But most charge

When we were in France for a couple of months a few years back we were looking for stamps to post some cards. Asked in English and what no joy , finally I turned to my husband in Welsh and Said "we will need to take the cards home" instantly they said "you're Welsh ? Yes I said and explained where we were from. They instantly changed and told us English tourists are very rude , we do not help them. So not just the Welsh who have issues with some English tourists.

When I speak to family and friends I use the language we prefer. I don’t consider tourists’ needs funnily enough, just our own. I don’t exist to please tourists 😂

This kind of thing has happened to us loads of times in North Wales, we just stopped going in the end. Sad because it’s a beautiful part of the UK.