Caused a scene in a cafe today. Now wondering if we were unreasonable

[pennytoffees]

I'll start off by saying I'm welsh, born and bred and speak the language as does my entire family.

We visited (my mother and I) a local cafe today and had such an awful experience. We haven't been there in years but don't remember it being that bad. We don't sound welsh and spoke to them in English so they obviously assumed that we were tourists. They were very cold towards us.

Anyway, we placed our order and another staff member brought the food over to us. We asked for some sauces to which she replied "go and ask her" and then pointed to the woman at the till. There was a queue and we didn't want the food to go cold so asked her if she could get us some. She gave me a filthy look but reluctantly handed them over. I just want to add that at no point did she say that the sauces cost extra so we just presumed that they were free like most cafes/restaurants. It turns out that they weren't (to be honest I think it's pretty greedy charging customers for sachets of sauce when they've spent £14 on a meal and I don't know any other local businesses that do it but thats another argument). We would have paid with no issues had she explained that to us.

The main issue is that she came over to a couple sat behind us and started talking about us in Welsh thinking that we didn't understand. Funnily enough they asked for some sauces and she gave them for free but when we asked it was an issue. The only difference is they were clearly locals. At this point we'd had enough so I asked to speak with the manager and she asked me "why, is there a problem?". I said "yes but I'm not discussing it with you". Anyway, he came over and I explained what had happened. She was on the other side of the counter and came over and said "I'm sorry, I wasn't talking about you". She wasn't close enough to hear us talking so obviously knew what she had done wrong and was just trying to cover her tracks.

He apologised and we left it at that, didn't even finish our food as we felt so uncomfortable. To be honest I don't think he knew what to do but after reading the reviews online, it's clearly a regular occurrence and he doesn't care how his staff behaves or treats customers. It was embarrassing as everyone was looking at us. We don't like confrontation or causing trouble but felt we had to confront her. I believe we would have been treated differently had they known we were welsh. I was actually embarrassed to be welsh to be honest. They forget it's the tourists keeping them in business.

AIBU? Would you have confronted her or just walked away?

You'd think that people would be LESS prejudiced and petty in 2024 - but it seems being mean to the English is allowed!

and to the Welsh judging by this thread

We’ve been visiting Scotland every year for 12 years and have never had this happen to us. We’ve always found people very welcoming.

Must be the comraderie of coming from a nation oppressed for centuries.
We are friendly honest.
My Welsh is terrible, not helped by many years living abroad without hearing it.
Dd talks to me in Welsh and makes me listen and work my brain. Doubt I'll ever be as good as when I was young, but there you go.
People are usually hostile to someone who is hostile towards them, whether you're English or not. Some people are just a misery and are the same at work.
When I find a friendly place I use it, no matter what they speak. Today I served by a very friendly lady with an accent I think was Polish, or maybe Ukrainian. I smiled she smiled, we were nice to each other.

I think the difference is sometimes how you are holidaying in these places as a guest.

Staying in an area that doesn’t have proper holiday accommodation so your staying in what could be someone’s actual home more likely to face hostility where ever you are.

Staying somewhere where there are proper bnbs, caravan parks, camping sites and hotels more welcome.

Air bnb / second home owners are what make locals hate the tourists as they ruin the area by only being there intermittently but taking up full time spaces, schools end up closing and doctors and the post office and so on all because it looked postcard cute so some richer person snapped up a second home/holiday let.

Have you ever actually tried, as an English person, to live elsewhere in the UK, than England?

Most nationalities are usually very welcome, except the English. Have to say, after several years in one country, and about 10 years in another, all within the UK, the shitty comments, jibes, and at times, downright ostracising behaviour is tiresome.

'Not all people' Nah, no ones suggesting it is. But it's enough of a problem that it makes people very unwelcome, and form an opinion of a place, of course. People like this are letting their area down.

I experienced it in Wales as a child. From adults. People are fucking sad.

Of course, if you're English though, you're not allowed to say you're on the receiving end of quite a lot of prejudice. United Kingdom my arse.

Unfortunately this is the welcome in a few Welsh places, we visited a few weeks ago and in the Costa we were given our drinks in takeaway cups despite sitting in and we were told that the milkshake machine was not working due to maintenance, but a family came in talking Welsh and suddenly there was milkshake available, and they got proper cups and saucers!

It does happen. All the time.

I've been on the receiving end of it for about as long as you've been holidaying here.

Scottish people are lovely welcoming people. A minority of them, absolutely detest the English, and whilst trying to be polite, that resentment inevitably slips through the cracks soon enough, and they just can't help themselves with comments somewhere along the line.

Unfortunately, when you experience it enough, this is what sticks. Your experience is not the experience of all English people, and its not fair to suggest, or minimise the prejudice people DO face. We might be English, but we still absolutely do face this. What a shame it's mostly within the United Kingdom (although have had the very rare, and odd, experience elsewhere).

I think you're unreasonable for not speaking Welsh, when you say you're fluent in it, in a place where you know everyone's mother tongue is Welsh. Forcing native Welsh speakers to speak English to you, when they don't need to because you speak Welsh, and when you're in a position of superiority as a customer, is as rude as the waitress talking about you in Welsh thinking you didn't understand her. Shame on you for not protecting your wonderful minority language, which needs protecting in the face of such a juggernaut as English, at every opportunity. The Welsh language will die out eventually, and it will be because of laziness and this "it's my right to choose to speak English if I want" attitude.

This makes me really sad. I’m English but really love Wales. We go on a break there every year and it’s my favourite place in the world. To think I might be hated or talked about behind my back when I’m in a local cafe makes me really sad!

The waitress in question gave the sauces free to the Welsh speaking couple. But the OP, who wasn't speaking Welsh, was charged for the sauces. It certainly has the appearance of xenophobia.

You completely did the right thing. They’ve been caught out for being racist. If I was you I’d write a nasty review on trip advisor

I love Wales. I'm Scottish though.

Again, stop incorrectly using the word ‘racist’. It wasn’t even xenophobic unless you’re really grasping. Which many are here.

It was a local cafe for local people.

The anti tourist thing has become an issue in Spain and in parts of Portugal. It's about housing in the main.

If this thread was about any other nationality it would have been taken down. Why has everyone assumed that the waitress thought OP was English? There'll be all sorts of nationalities visiting the cafe and speaking English.

A Welsh person has bad customer service, speaks to the manager. How did that get to this absolute shit show? I say this to everyone, if you don't like the place and don't respect the locals then don't come. If you come bringing that sort of attitude it's going to show.

I'm a South Wales girl and I don't speak Welsh, I had the best time in North Wales over the summer, absolutely stunning place and the people were lovely. I won't stay in an Air BNB though because houses are for locals.

I've had bad experiences in plenty of places, it would never cross my mind to write off an entire nation based on one instance.

Genuine question, as I’ve heard this about north wales before, why is there so much hatred towards English tourists? Especially in 2024?- it’s not Edward i days? I wouldn’t dream of being unfriendly to someone because they speak Welsh or to be honest any other country! I just don’t get it

I've never had a problem visiting North Wales, it is no different to visiting anywhere else. The OP's cafe sounds like it is run by extremists, and extremism is nearly always bad, so chalk it up to experience and don't go there again. I'd be surprised if there are many Welsh people who expect people to learn the language before visiting, people don't do that when they go abroad on holiday. Same with visiting Scotland, I've always found people in the hospitality industry friendly and have never felt unwelcome or detected any antagonism.

ethnically Welsh are Celtic , English are ethnically - well Anglo Saxon, Viking, Roman, well tbh everything. So yes I would call it racist. Yes the same skin colour but racism as a definition is ethnicity too. That is why I chose the word racist- I do know the difference thankyou

Same as others said. Let her spew her nastiness then hunikate her in Welsh and ask for a refund for thr sauces.
I would still get manager involved and ask for reduction in bill. I would have finished my food and leave a very negative review

It doesn't matter, whatever word you want or don't want to use to label it, it is irrational and unreasonable discrimination which amounts to the same thing as racism and xenophobia and should equally be called out.

Gosh, this thread has escalated. I’m a Welsh Speaker, (username a bit of a giveaway to those who speak Welsh.) I live in Wales in a very Welsh speaking tourist area. My DP’s family are English. My DC’s family life crosses over the English/ Welsh cultures.

So, the gist is..

1. Some English people have encountered rudeness from Welsh people.
2. Some Welsh people have encountered rudeness from English people.
3. Some English people feel that the Welsh are anti-English.
4. Some Welsh people feel that the English are anti-Welsh.
5. Some English people are anti Welsh.
6. Some Welsh people are anti English.
7. Customer service in Wales is a mixture of poor / good. (I guess this is the same in England?)
8. Some English people have been on the receiving end of anti-English sentiments from Welsh people which have hurt their feelings.
9. Some Welsh people have been on the receiving end of anti-Welsh sentiments from English people which have hurt their feelings.

10. Some Welsh people are racist/xenophobic, which needs calling out. 11. Some English people are racist/xenophobic, which needs calling out. 12. Some Welsh people have encountered rude and ignorant Welsh people within their own culture. 13. Some English people have encountered rude and ignorant English people within their own culture. 14. All cultures can be on the receiving end of tropes and it can become tiresome to hear the same accusations time after time. 15. We all have experiences where someone from (insert nationality) has been rude to us. Likewise, we’ve had situations where people from (same nationality) have been lovely to us.

So... our communities are a mixture of different natured people with good and bad qualities, whether we are Welsh or English. Which is the same for every country across the world. This ‘othering’ isn’t helpful and this thread is quite sad to witness.

Heddwch/ Peace

Reminds me of a story of my mums from years ago. She was English but spent the summer holidays each year on the Llyn peninsula and could speak and understand a lot of Welsh at the time. Her and my dad were recently married and had gone to a marina for drinks and a couple of locals starting calling them in Welsh until my mum turned round and gave them a gobful back, nice as pie after 🤣

I met similar behaviour in Wales, sad to say. I'd tried to learn the basics courtesies in Welsh but when I used them, people replied in English. I asked why and was told I didn't speak Welsh well enough to deserve a Welsh answer. I've never returned there. Don't go where you're not welcome.

Agreed. In my home country we have English and Americans and other Europeans who refuse to learn the language and refuse to mix with the locals. They have British Schools/American schools etc etc. They don't integrate in the culture it all and they live in closed off communities. It is very disgusting but thr government don't do anything about it at all.