Caused a scene in a cafe today. Now wondering if we were unreasonable

[pennytoffees]

I'll start off by saying I'm welsh, born and bred and speak the language as does my entire family.

We visited (my mother and I) a local cafe today and had such an awful experience. We haven't been there in years but don't remember it being that bad. We don't sound welsh and spoke to them in English so they obviously assumed that we were tourists. They were very cold towards us.

Anyway, we placed our order and another staff member brought the food over to us. We asked for some sauces to which she replied "go and ask her" and then pointed to the woman at the till. There was a queue and we didn't want the food to go cold so asked her if she could get us some. She gave me a filthy look but reluctantly handed them over. I just want to add that at no point did she say that the sauces cost extra so we just presumed that they were free like most cafes/restaurants. It turns out that they weren't (to be honest I think it's pretty greedy charging customers for sachets of sauce when they've spent £14 on a meal and I don't know any other local businesses that do it but thats another argument). We would have paid with no issues had she explained that to us.

The main issue is that she came over to a couple sat behind us and started talking about us in Welsh thinking that we didn't understand. Funnily enough they asked for some sauces and she gave them for free but when we asked it was an issue. The only difference is they were clearly locals. At this point we'd had enough so I asked to speak with the manager and she asked me "why, is there a problem?". I said "yes but I'm not discussing it with you". Anyway, he came over and I explained what had happened. She was on the other side of the counter and came over and said "I'm sorry, I wasn't talking about you". She wasn't close enough to hear us talking so obviously knew what she had done wrong and was just trying to cover her tracks.

He apologised and we left it at that, didn't even finish our food as we felt so uncomfortable. To be honest I don't think he knew what to do but after reading the reviews online, it's clearly a regular occurrence and he doesn't care how his staff behaves or treats customers. It was embarrassing as everyone was looking at us. We don't like confrontation or causing trouble but felt we had to confront her. I believe we would have been treated differently had they known we were welsh. I was actually embarrassed to be welsh to be honest. They forget it's the tourists keeping them in business.

AIBU? Would you have confronted her or just walked away?

@Expletive ,The difference is that unlike any of the other countries you mention, English is the most commonly spoken language in the whole of Wales. By a huge margin.

What we Welsh-speakers, if I may speak for us collectively, resent is the unawareness there is of the fact that many of us live our daily lives not speaking any English other than the odd word.

Being fully bilingual myself, perhaps I find it natural that people, for whom English isn’t their first language, will speak their non-English language instinctively, even in mixed company.

For example, I have a dentist from Eastern Europe who once had an assistant from the same country. They would converse in English to me; but mid treatment, not unusual for them to turn to their first language. I’m guessing it was exchanges such as passing instruments or other such stuff; but it wasn’t something I considered unusual.

I understand that if you speak two languages, that you turn to your first language to others instinctively with those who share your first language. It’s like the de-fault setting. It takes more concentration to speak English to people who share your non-English first language; and quite frankly feels awkward.

I do it myself in mixed groups. Whilst English becomes the shared language; I am likely to exchange greetings /casual remarks in Welsh to other Welsh speakers within the English conversation.

This is why Welsh speakers here are finding the OP’s position difficult to fathom. It is unusual, almost unheard of, for a Welsh speaker to go into a cafe where Welsh is spoken and not speak Welsh to other Welsh speakers. Which is why I understand how my dentist and the dental nurse spoke their first language to each other, but turned to English when I needed to be included. It’s a very natural way for bilingual people to communicate.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=966889406716055&wtsid=rdr_0ehqVkx1xvbpDa7dj

You might indeed say it in places with two languages. Catalonia, for example. A Catalonian family might be able to speak Spanish, but not be a Spanish-speaking family. Or vice versa.

Many Welsh people speak English as their first language, embrace Welsh-language teaching at school so become bilingual, but aren't entirely Welsh speaking.

Maybe you're not as adept in English as you thought...

This is why Welsh speakers here are finding the OP’s position difficult to fathom. It is unusual, almost unheard of, for a Welsh speaker to go into a cafe where Welsh is spoken and not speak Welsh to other Welsh speakers.

It isn’t only Welsh speakers that find her position difficult to fathom. Although I do know Welsh speakers who will respond in Welsh if spoken to in Welsh and will join a Welsh conversation in Welsh, but day-to-day they speak English, even to their own families.

That isn’t in North Wales though.

@MasterBeth , There was no need for that last comment.

Depending on where in Conwy the OP says she lives, she may have grown up in a Welsh-speaking area and been educated in Welsh-medium schools. To go into a shop or cafe in a Welsh-speaking area and speak to the staff in English, seems bizarre.

Plenty of countries have more than one language. France, Netherlands, Belgium and Italy to name only a few.

To all those scornfully questioning my childhood experiences; we knew they were speaking English because we heard them as we entered the shop or café. We witnessed them changing to Welsh when they heard us speak. Why do you think it's so baffling that so many people experience this? Surely that's evidence that it does happen.

Many Welsh people speak English as their first language

The majority of people in Wales as a whole speak English as their first and only language.

Even if it does, what does it mean?

I would just assume that they were having a private conversation and wanted to keep it private.

@Skodacool , Why would they do that? Makes no sense.
Wouldn't it be obvious that their Welsh was forced? It's obvious from the toneof voice if someone is talking about you.

Welsh people often pepper their speech with English words out of laziness, and if you heard a conversation, you might hear something like 'Rho'r cheesecake yn y fridge, mae hi'n really yummy' or 'nes di weld y football ar y television? Liverpool vs Arsenal, two-nil' and that might register as English. When the next bit is said it's in purer Welsh, but they won't have switched language.

@Expletive ,The majority of people in Wales as a whole speak English as their first and only language. Can you back that up as a fact?
Plenty of people in Wales speak more than one language.

@DaNiYmaOHyd

I can.

Population of Wales: c. 3,164,000 2024

Number of Welsh speaking residents: 538,000 2021

Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/language/bulletins/welshlanguagewales/census2021

Is suspect if you are Welsh speaker who lives in North Wales you may have a distorted view of how much Welsh is actually spoken in the rest of the country.

I only know one gog and he only speaks Welsh to other gogs. Locals find him difficult to understand.

I’m a hwntw. IME it’s gogs who have trouble understanding us, not the other way around!

@Expletive , many people speak more than one language. Many of the people who live in Wales might speak English as a second language, with the language at home being something like Cantonese, Urdu or Gujarati.

I have a good idea of how much Welsh is spoken, and there are parts of Wales where there are hardly any Welsh-speakers, but there are places where the majority speak Welsh most of the day.

I'm a Welsh speaker but do not live in North Wales. I have lived there.

Maybe you're not as adept in English as you thought...

Probably because like most people from NW Wales I spent my whole youth only speaking Welsh. Your naivety (like most people outside of Wales) is lumping the entire country together. Many Welsh people do speak English as their first or only language, but we’re talking specifically here about the North and Anglesey. The majority are Welsh first language and only speak English for the benefit of tourists and those who have not learned the language. Hopefully at some point you can comprehend that English for those in NW Wales is a second language.

@KimberleyClark , I think Gogs tend to speak more slowly and less singsongy than Hwntws, and I find the dialects different but have no difficult understanding anyone. Some word and phrases seem weird until you get used to them.

When I was at university and we used to have to wait for the phone in the hall of residence I used to hear one of my Welsh speaking housemates liberally peppering her conversation with English words.

That's not true any more. Since Welsh became compulsory in schools, many more children are first language Welsh.

Also, it completely depends on which area of Wales you're in. If you're in Cardiff, then yes, you probably won't hear much Welsh being spoken. Go further West to Carmarthenshire and you won't hear much English. For the people of Carmarthenshire, their first language is Welsh and they speak it as a first language to others. It's not as simple as, "English is the main language of Wales".

@DaNiYmaOHyd

many people speak more than one language. Many of the people who live in Wales might speak English as a second language, with the language at home being something like Cantonese, Urdu or Gujarati.

Unless Wales has a hugely disproportionate number of ethnic minority residents compared to the rest of the UK (highly unlikely), you are clutching at straws with this one.

Has that happened since 2021 census?

You may have missed that I referred to Wales as a whole.

When I asked him about it, he said it was their fault, not his. However, his character is such that he may not want to accept that it is him that can’t understand them rather than the other way round.

Some more up to date data here:

For the year ending 30 June 2024, the APS estimated that 27.8% of people aged three years or over were able to speak Welsh. This is the lowest percentage recorded in eight years. This figure equates to around 854,400 people.

www.gov.wales/welsh-language-data-annual-population-survey-july-2023-june-2024-html

@Expletive , I said many, not most. There are people from different heritages in Wales.
I'm not clutching at straws, but you seem to think that Wales is only populated with monoglots and people who only speak Welsh and English.

The last time I went to Tesco a couple of staff members were speaking to each other in, I think, Polish. It didn't bother me.

I noted that you said many, not most. It made no difference to my response.

I think nothing of the kind. I know that the majority of people in Wales speak only English or English and Welsh. The number people in Wales speaking other languages or combinations of languages is not going to alter that.

I am happy to be corrected if you can prove, with credible sources, that I am wrong.

I think if you included just school age children and above that would be a considerably higher percentage. Welsh medium education is massive all over Wales. My kids couldn't have been called Welsh speaking at 3, but at age 5 they were.

I'm in the Vale of Glamorgan, not really an area known for it's Welsh speaking population, but we do hear it now. Pretty regularly in supermarkets, and on the streets.

Also, there are tons of people, like myself who don't call themselves Welsh speakers, because they're not fluent, but could get by day to day. I think I could manage most of my life with my clumsy Welsh if I needed to. I could absolutely manage to order food in a cafe like the OP and I certainly would in a Welsh speaking area.

There's not just fluency or nothing.