Dealing with teachers who are (imho) bullying children

[derivativation]

DC is year 8. The school was mostly amazing last year but unfortunately we have had a head change head and several new teachers, with several really good teachers leaving.

Several of the new teachers get too critical with the children, saying they are not very clever, that they have no thoughts, their mind is a void, boys are not as good as girls etc. DC is well behaved and so not affected until last week. DC has however stood up for one of the children who was being called stupid by making a light hearted comment. DC was really upset that children were being called stupid and we had decided to try to move school by that point, though it will take a bit of time to organise because of practicalities. But now it has got worse. Last week and today two teachers in classes where DC has done well and the teacher has sung DC's praises (DC does all required homework, does not disrupt classes, puts hand up to speak) talked to DC as though DC had done something very bad and that he deserved to be treated really badly. DC very upset. I strongly suspect that the teachers are intentionally trying to take DC down a peg or two because someone has said they are too much of a smarty pants. DC is quiet and can come across as quietly confident, but DC is not confident at all deep down.

The new head is a chocolate teapot who has brought in a series of changes to rules which appear to be designed to humilate and shame children.

Any brilliant ways of dealing with this while DC has to attend? If I try to talk to the teachers they will think that I am trying to tell them what to do and it will make things worse for DC. If I tell them that DC is in fact not confident and is in some ways quite vulnerable, they will pick on him. I am not joking unfortunately.

I wish I could home school but to set that up would take just as long as finding a better school.

Really helpful post, thank you so much.

Thank you for your post!

This is exactly what happens at DC's school.

derivativation - this is the same policy that happens in new build estates, in my view, having lived on one. Basically they put one problem family in each block or section, hoping that the families that don't cause any trouble will moderate the problem family's behaviour. It does not work. What is happening on new build estates, where a % has to be social housing, and in schools is that the housing officers and teachers respectively are abrogating their responsibilities to other families on the estates and individual well-behaved kids in schools so they don't have to deal directly with this problem behaviour. I would say some of this in schools has happened because of the way bad behaviour is dealt with these days (and in my son's case 15-20 years ago) versus when I was at school.

For example, my son gets bullied and reacts (after being placed next to the disruptive child despite the head and deputy and teacher saying they wouldn't do that anymore). While the teachers accept he didn't start it he and the other boy are forced to sit down and discuss it (!). There's no punishment for the boy. In fact, my son got punished as he also lost a play time as that is when the discussion would take place. No consequences, in my view, has had a detrimental effect on behaviour in schools and so it goes out into wider society. After agreeing they wouldn't put my son and this boy together they then put them together for a musical activity shortly after! I think on purpose as I'd dared to speak out. There were other incidences after that where my son was picked on by teachers or not given a treat.

At the private school he went to while the kids were kids and naturally there was arguing etc it wasn't to the extent he experienced in state school and the private school was very on top of the behaviour so there wasn't as much crap - all this is my experience. If you've got a good state school you're lucky.

You disagree with the dictionary then. I copied and pasted

No. Bullying is, by definition, REPEATED.

I didn't challenge your definition, though I did point out that your criteria fitted what was happening to DC, but you aren't correct, you were quoting guidelines. There isn't a legal definition, and how an action which was seen as bullying is prosecuted or subject to a civil action will depend on a number of factors, including what was done - whether physical or psych for example, who the victim is, what damage or harm was suffered etc.

Dictionary definitions will vary but one I just found was "seek to harm, intimidate, or coerce (someone perceived as vulnerable)". There are various.

For bullying at work or at school there are guidelines. But again, it will depend on various factors including who the victim is and how vulnerable they are.

When I asked for advice about teachers bullying what I meant was that the behaviour of the teachers was very, very substandard and I used "bullying" in a common parlance way rather than as a defined term, and asked for advice on that basis. And then asked for opinions about the situation I described, again in a common parlance way, would you see this as bullying, just asking for personal opinions.

There isn't a definition, see above.

I have engaged with you on the thread, but can I now ask what your expertise is here - are you a teacher or do you have other relevant expertise or experience, or are you just passing comment?

I don't think the poster meant that, I didn't take it as that. i have to handle difficult conversations as part of my profession and so this doesn't bother me in that sense, though obviously my dc is being affected and that affects how i feel, I agree with the poster about having to be assertive, but I have seen other mothers get a hard time in teacher parent evenings unfairly sometimes and then take their husband to the next one, and it is true that the dynamic is sometimes different. Shouldn't be, but is. And the husband doesn't have to be huge, simply being male seems to get a different reception with some people, sadly, even in this day and age.

A teacher.

Which probably means you will ignore me and assume I'm part of the conspiracy. Really most teachers are trying their best in tricky circumstances.

Can you describe any of the other things that are bothering you?

I don't ignore teachers and I am not sure what conspiracy you speak of. I am surprised you are a teacher, but if you say you are, I'll take that at face value. Thanks for answering.

You've written the whole thread in smoke and mirrors. One actual example of the "bullying" and convinced 3 other teachers are joining in.

If you gave more examples or context, I'd offer more advice. But so far what I'm reading is that your complaints of bullying are unfounded and you'd be better off challenging actual seen/heard of behaviour with the individuals involved.

I really appreciated this post and gave a thanks but am now quoting so that it can be more widely read. It is reassuring that the training is good and I hope that at some point it will always be reflected in practice!

Others have been able to understand exactly what I meant. For me to write specifics it would be outing, unfair to all concerned, and about ten pages long. There have been no smoke and mirrors.

I apologise for picking out your post and asking, it was what you wrote about uniforms which caught my eye - but I have just seen an earlier post and see you had talked about classroom management, so apologies. I do however disagree with most of your posts (no conspiracy though)

People don't like to believe teachers bully children. But alas, they do. Lots of evil teachers out there unfortunately.

I would say, look out for these things

1. Alienation from peers. Because kids notice a child being bullied by a teacher and distance themselves for fear the teacher will bully them too.
2. Child becomes withdrawn, jumpy, depressed and won't talk about it.
3. Unexplained marks or bruises.
4. Child being kept after class alone with teacher. Excuses made like 'they are behind on their math skills'.
5. Child being sent to head teacher or punished more often than usual.
6. Homework marked incorrect when it isn't.
7. Child often worried about having done something wrong and fixating that you think they are bad as a result.

The teacher who assaulted me as a child and later, bullied me through a whole school year, is now a head teacher.

I'd never have children if I couldn't home school them. They are not safe in these facilities.

I read your post @Keyryder and feel desperately sorry for you that happened. Living your life with such an attitude of suspicion towards school must be so draining and it is clear your experiences in school caused this.

However, I do think that it isn't helpful to portray all schools and teachers as evil abusers. Reading your list, 1-3 & 7 are signs of abuse we are taught to look out for as staff. 4 would raise safeguarding flags too. 5 is very subjective because what's usual for one child isn't for another. 6 is plain crazy apart from the odd teacher mistake. You must have encountered a very nasty teacher.

I spend a lot of time in other people's classrooms and seeing others teach. As a general rule, my colleagues are all trying their best, want children to do well, enjoy the teaching part and building good relationships with students. If I'd seen the behaviour you described, I would have taken it further.

I know this post won't change your mind, and I hope one day you get the support to recover.

OP I hope your child is coping with their last few days in the school.

I am fully recovered. Though I do recognise that the abuse in childhood from that person predisposed me to abuse in my later life.

I have met many wonderful teachers. I have friends who are teachers infact. But I still wouldn't ever trust strangers with my children. Certainly not if I couldn't home school them if a scenario like ops arose.

Luckily I don't have or want kids so no need to revisit any past trauma. But I feel so sorry for children who even today, are exposed to monsters.

I am very sorry about your experiences. I would say your items 1, 2, 5, 6, 7 have been reasonably common at our schools sadly, though not often experienced by DC. It is always a difficult weighing up exercise, is there more risk or benefit to children going to school and it would make things a lot easier if schools improved across the board. Lots of good wishes to you!

It isn't their last few days of school. This has not been said in one single post.

I want to just double check this with you once more. You have a child whose parent has explained more than once that the child is vulnerable and why, that the child has I guess you could say special needs in one particular subject needing to sit in a quiet part of the room - yes there is a quiet part but in particular not next to the most rowdy child which is where they have been sat for a few weeks now, and that the child has felt bullied by the rowdy child for a couple of months and this is further reason to move them, another member of staff has also tried to talk to the teacher explaining again the stress caused to the child, and the teacher is still not budging, leaving no choice but for the parent to escalate, so wasting everyone's time and energy, and you do not think that the teacher might just be bullying intentionally for whatever reason?

Just checking.

I would just add, just because pp mentioned 'intentional bullying', that when I was a kid being predated upon by this teacher, it came with tremendous amount of shame and guilt because, you were taught that adults were always right and, if they were mad at you or punishing you, it must be because you are bad. That they must have a reason.

So even as a kid I made excuses for her behaviour. Infact, sometimes I even catch myself doing it now with 'oh she was a young teacher and it was a big class..stress...' etc... but, I can also clearly see the signs of predation. Of how she deliberately alienated me from my peers. Ans even after assaulting me, singled me out for further abuse (as opposed to a normal person who may havd 'snapped'. Who would instead, surely have tried to distance herself from me instead going forwards).

As a child I knew she was mean and hated me but I also felt their must be a reason, like it must be something I'm doing wrong.

Anyway the point being, whilst I think some teachers have things really hard and make...awful mistakes, shall we say... there are predators in the school system who enjoy the vulnerability of children.

I think it natural to try see things from the adults point of view. And recognise that teaching can be an extraordinarily emotionally tough job. But sadistic personalities often gravitate to positions of power over the vulnerable.

Nowhere in your post have you said how often you've tried to get the seating plan changed?
If other members of staff have asked, and the answer is still no, then yes, you need to escalate.

I'm still not sure it's bullying, however it seems the term is somewhat subjective. To me it's poor professionalism, however without talking to the teacher, I don't know if there are any other reasons why they aren't moving your child. There's not enough information to decide whether it is intentional bullying, being a shit teacher, or having other justification for not moving your child. Whatever of those three it is, the teacher is not very professional in their communication with you.

You said your child was moving schools. Apologies I thought this was imminent.

I agree with you and I am guessing from your post that you didn't have a parent who realised what was going on and stepped in.

I think that when parents get their kids to give them a blow by blow every day. whether recounting tales fromt the playground or the class or about work or whatever else, it means that when something off happens the parent can see the change in their demeanour and be able to help them. Sometimes, as you say, the child will be uncertain - like "they said x, is that okay do you think?" - and it means the parent can talk about it. And explain a child or an adult's behaviour whether good or bad.

And when that doesn't happen it does go with kids into adulthood, causing confusion about what is and isn't healthy in a relationship. I agree with you.

I said 2 times, and then asked the teacher to talk to the member of staff who had handled the bullying so in effect 3 times. I also said that there was a spare seat and no reason to not move them. I think you saying they might be shit or unprofessional but it might not be bullying is somewhat splitting hairs.

My parents were taken in by her too as she was superficially charming. Convinced them that I needed special attention in certain areas etc...

I never told them about the physical assault in childhoood as I thought I'd get into trouble.

I think 'I'm sorry that that happened to you. You know I'm here if you ever need to talk' is always a good place to start. Also being very clear that no one has the right to physically harm them under any circumstances of course.

And most importantly, teaching them how to spot bullies and making it clear with them that - we do not give these people the benefit of the doubt or makes excuses for their bad behaviour. And that we are not to blame for other people's cruelty. And that we should get away from these people, fast and far. Not try to hang around changing ourselves in hope of fixing them. That it's OK to consider people 'bad'. Not go searching for the good in everyone. Because some people...really are just rotten.

Of course, getting away from an abuser is easier said than done if it's a teacher who's class they have to be in.

But the 'there's good in everyone' Christian narrative I had background wise, I think did me a lot of harm. I couldn't trust my instincts of 'she is bad and means me harm'. I think its important to be clear with kids that evil does exist. And whilst many people are good human beings who sometimes make mistakes, some people are out solely to cause harm to others. And its never our responsibility as children to guess what's what. If someone treats us badly- get away from them.