Dealing with teachers who are (imho) bullying children

[derivativation]

DC is year 8. The school was mostly amazing last year but unfortunately we have had a head change head and several new teachers, with several really good teachers leaving.

Several of the new teachers get too critical with the children, saying they are not very clever, that they have no thoughts, their mind is a void, boys are not as good as girls etc. DC is well behaved and so not affected until last week. DC has however stood up for one of the children who was being called stupid by making a light hearted comment. DC was really upset that children were being called stupid and we had decided to try to move school by that point, though it will take a bit of time to organise because of practicalities. But now it has got worse. Last week and today two teachers in classes where DC has done well and the teacher has sung DC's praises (DC does all required homework, does not disrupt classes, puts hand up to speak) talked to DC as though DC had done something very bad and that he deserved to be treated really badly. DC very upset. I strongly suspect that the teachers are intentionally trying to take DC down a peg or two because someone has said they are too much of a smarty pants. DC is quiet and can come across as quietly confident, but DC is not confident at all deep down.

The new head is a chocolate teapot who has brought in a series of changes to rules which appear to be designed to humilate and shame children.

Any brilliant ways of dealing with this while DC has to attend? If I try to talk to the teachers they will think that I am trying to tell them what to do and it will make things worse for DC. If I tell them that DC is in fact not confident and is in some ways quite vulnerable, they will pick on him. I am not joking unfortunately.

I wish I could home school but to set that up would take just as long as finding a better school.

I once told a 13 year old girl to 'stop fooling about', to the mother this was twisted into I had called her little angel a fool!

OP always check if what the children say happened matches what the teachers say happened. All children lie and misremember. I’d be amazed in this day and age if various teachers are calling a child stupid in front of other pupils.

This is what I mean about “misremembering” - intentionally or unintentionally

Children are shit historians even more so when they’re in trouble

My DD has never been in trouble at school (yet!) but she told me about a fight one of her friends had had. Apparently the other girl said something nasty and her mate only said “You can’t say that me”, and then the fight began. DD’s friend got a detention and the other girl didn’t. I smelt a fish. I am friends with many mums and found out that my DD’s friend started it all and what she actually said was “I’ll rip your fucking head off”, before trying to.

It might help the situation for the target of the bullying to know that their peers care about them and have their back. I think any of us would think more highly of someone who spoke up when they saw us being bullied rather than keeping their heads down and pretending not to see.

Thank you - sincerely - that’s the kind of nuance, thoughtfulness and realism I’d hope for in this kind of discussion. Just wanted to acknowledge you as it all got a bit dogmatic.
I will stop posting though as it’s not my thread and nothing to do with me!

All I get from your comment is that teachers can do no wrong?

I had a horrible teacher in school who was an absolute bully and clearly got off on humiliating others

Your dc sounds lovely!

In relation to uniforms, I posted upthread about how I attended two schools, one with a strict uniform policy and the other without. The one without a strict uniform code was academic, with more focus on academics than uniform, and most of the children ended up at good universities and successful careers, that is, you could say, had self discipline. The pupils did much better overall than the school with strict dress code (though there additional reasons for this not just the dress code). I am not sure that there is any correlation between strict rules for the sake of rules and future success. It would be better that discipline in schools could be research-based

As far as I know according to research the best way of disciplining children at school is to set out your expectations (many times) give positive instructions about what they should be doing (many times) and provide sufficient support to enable them to feel safe enough in the school environment to think clearly and learn and to want to engage with the teachers and the rules. Most children want to behave well. More attention to helping children who are not doing as well academically would be a good idea too, as a lot of the acting out at DC's school is by children who are behind and can't do the work.

This is nothing to do with what I posted about. Just responding to some of the comments.

@Hoppinggreen I can't find your post but wanted to reply to what I read a couple of nights ago. However many years you have under your belt I think that you are wrong about what you say about how reliable a child is at (a) explaining a situation at school and (b) being perceptive about whether they are being treated with respect or not by an adult. I think that you are underestimating children.

I was also thinking about what has been said about lying. I really can't think of many instances of lying in children at the school. DC has said that a lot of the children don't do homework, or get out of hand, etc, but when questioned about it most of them don't lie about it.

I think that you are also underestimating the damage that can be done with flippant "your brain is a void" or "can no one think today?" or "you are stupid" or "you are being stupid" said in humour. I even suspect that this kind of humour might be held to be psychological abuse in relationships nowadays, that is, if this is how you were talking to a partner.

Back to the point of the thread, I would like to know what posters would think about this hypothectical situation - I can't give actual specifics because it would be too outing.

Teacher moves a child to sit next to a child who has bullied them. The school knows about the bullying because members of staff had observed it and talked to the child who was bullying and got them to apologise and are generally monitoring the situation etc. The teacher quite possibly was not aware of this and so the parent writes a note to the teacher explaining about the bullying and asking if the child could be moved, and also saying that the child had asked to be moved to a quiet area of the room because of problems in this particular class with noise levels, literally not being able to hear the teacher, and that the child is unable to see the board where they are as they are waiting for new glasses. Teacher completely ignores this. Parent gives more information about the bullying and asks the teacher if they could talk to the person at the school who dealt with the bullying. Teacher ignores again. Child who has bullied is rowdy and spends the whole lesson talking and asking personal questions to the child who has been bullied. Teacher still doesn't move them. Teacher gives no reason as to why they haven't moved them. There is an empty seat in the quiet area of the classroom.

Is this teacher bullying do you think? I am interested to know after all the comments about resilience etc.

That's not bullying.

That sounds like a teacher in a room with a hell of a lot going on who forgot to move a child.

Why assume that, just out of interest? Nothing was said about a busy or full class or lots going on? And if one child is unruly and disruptive would that not jolt the teacher's memory and prompt a quick move of the other child to an empty space?

moved to a quiet area of the room because of problems in this particular class with noise levels

These lines.

Teacher still doesn't move them. Teacher gives no reason as to why they haven't moved them.

Did the child ask again?

Either way it's not bullying.

derivativation

Your hypothetical is based on the assumption that this is the only problem/issue within the class.

But this isn't bullying by the teacher

You still haven't said what the teacher said and what your DD said.

No, that's not bullying. Have you spoken to someone directly about this issue?

The scenario here is nothing to do with the other teacher. I have already said, DC said something about what the teacher had said to the other child, the teacher said "yes I agree with you" to DC. It was a different teacher from the two who i think are now bullying DC. I have already said that. I am not saying exactly what DC said because it would be outing.

You do not think it is bullying to knowingly sit a child next to a child who the teacher knows had been bullying? When there were other more appropriate options available?

No. Bullying is he repetitive, intentional hurting of one person or group by another person or group. That's not what happened here.

This has been going on for a few weeks and so it is repetitive. Children commit suicide over bullying and the teacher is aware of child's feelings, and so how is this not intentional hurting?

@derivativation

I think the situation you're describing of a teacher ignoring emails and not moving a child being bullied is negligent but not bullying. Bullying would be the teacher intentionally choosing to cause a child upset repeatedly. You don't know that the teacher was intentionally choosing to sit the child next to someone who was bullying them.

From a teacher's perspective - our days are frantic and chaotic. Today I ate my breakfast at 1pm because that was the first break I had. I didn't have time to eat anything else all day. I teach back to back on Wednesdays so I didn't have a chance to look at my emails until 4pm. When I did, I had 50 to read and I didn't get to most of them because I needed to plan my lessons for tomorrow. I already have 100 unread emails that have stacked up from the past couple of days to get through. I won't get to them until my free period tomorrow. A parent may have emailed about an issue with their child that I haven't had a chance to read or action yet. This might mean that I could have inadvertently today or yesterday sat a child with another child they shouldn't be sitting with.

When you have several classes of 30 kids to think about and plan for every day, and very little time to do any admin or talk to colleagues about students, things do get missed and we also do forget things. Unless you've been a teacher, I don't think you can really understand what it's like on a day to day basis.

You seem insistent that the teachers at your child's school are intentionally looking to harm the children in their care. Perhaps you're right and perhaps this school has managed to attract the type of teachers who hate their jobs and shouldn't be anywhere near children. But you might also be dealing with a school where teachers are massively overworked, stressed and overwhelmed - especially as you've already said the headteacher is useless - and you have no idea how much of what is taking place in the classroom is down to teachers struggling to keep on top of things. I do my best every day to juggle everything and remember the needs of all of my students, but sometimes I do let things slip and I forget some information or make an error of judgement. Some parents have to wait a week for me to get back to them when they email because I just don't have enough time in the day and I have to prioritise having material to teach my classes.

Teachers are not perfect - none of us are. But I can't say I've come across many in my long career who genuinely take pleasure in deliberately making a child's life miserable.

You mean the noise levels indicate the teacher might be occupied with other things and forget? The way I described it was to avoid giving too many specific details. Basically, DC does well in all classes including this class, and weirdly has a fast processing speed for all subjects other than this subject, and has a slow processing speed for this subject alone for some reason. This particular teacher talks very quickly. DC was sitting with someone quiet beforehand and even then was having to really concentrate to keep up. DC said they were too terrified of this particular teacher to say anything, because the teacher seemed very volatile to them. After DC was moved it became unmanagable and so I explained to the teacher and asked if DC could be moved somewhere quiet.

This has been going for a few weeks, there have been a number of opportunities to make the move or discuss. Doubt very much that this is to do with being forgetful.

I am not going to complain to the school about bullying, as I explained earlier I am framing what I am saying around what has happened factually and how DC feels, not my perception of it. I just wondered if people would think this is bullying.

FWIW in my profession, a manager treating a team member like this, ie the fact that it is unnecessary and no benefit to anyone as well as causing upset, would be seen in a very poor light.

@derivativation your response to hercisback shows you really don't understand how managing a classroom works.

There is no 'somewhere quiet' to put a child in a classroom that's occupied by 30 other kids. Where exactly would you want your child to be moved?

You have no idea of the make up of that class and what other issues the teacher is having to manage through their existing seating plan.

Your DC says this teacher talks too fast and is 'volatile'. That's your child's perception and they obviously don't feel safe in that classroom. That however doesn't make the teacher a bully. It makes them someone whose teaching style and personality don't suit your child.

The more you explain about what is happening at your child's school, the more it's clear that your expectations are way out of line with the actual reality of most classrooms. There are some classes where you can't sit anyone away from someone who is going to distract or annoy them, because everyone's a problem and you haven't got enough space to separate desks and if you put Tom next to Zac then that means Emma has to sit with Jack and they broke up two weeks ago and aren't talking so that's not going to work, so instead you have to put Zac with Tom, even though Tom finds Zac distracting. It's a constant juggling act.

I think you need to be a little more realistic here about what you expect a school to be able to do for your child. Kids are not going to love all their teachers, they're not always going to be able to sit exactly where they want, and sometimes another child's needs will need to be prioritised over theirs. Such is life.

In my years of parenting school aged children I have come across some really amazing teachers, some fairly average ones and some really awful ones. I understand fully how pressurised it is and how difficult dealing with a class of teens and tweens would be. My profession is also highly pressurised, with a very heavy workload, and negligence in my work would have serious consequences. I want to make it clear that in relation to this school, there really are some absolutely amazing teachers, a few left at the end of the last year, but a few still remain and I am very appreciative of them. And I absolutely agree that having a poor head is going to make it more difficult for the teachers.

However, would you honestly be happy if your child were sat next to someone who had bullied them when there were other options available, on the basis that the teacher is busy or forgetful?

Bottom line here is that I have made my own assessment of what is going on here and am giving support to DC and will be dealing with it diplomatically, framing what I say about facts and DC's feelings, not asserting that there has been bullying and not making a formal complaint about bullying.

I wondered what posters would think about this situation but the point of this thread was asking how to deal with two individuals as I explained in my final paragraphs of my opening post, getting some ideas about diplomatic ways of dealing to get the best end result

Actually you are wrong. There is a quiet section of the room, because a couple of kids are autistic, and a couple have slow processing speeds. I know exactly how the class is laid out and what the options are, and how other teachers manage the same class. You are making incorrect assumptions here.

You are also not reading what I wrote very carefully. Talking too fast and being volatile does not make a teacher a bully, obviously, and I didn't say that. Sitting a child with a bully for a number of weeks when other places are available does make them a bully.