Dealing with teachers who are (imho) bullying children

[derivativation]

DC is year 8. The school was mostly amazing last year but unfortunately we have had a head change head and several new teachers, with several really good teachers leaving.

Several of the new teachers get too critical with the children, saying they are not very clever, that they have no thoughts, their mind is a void, boys are not as good as girls etc. DC is well behaved and so not affected until last week. DC has however stood up for one of the children who was being called stupid by making a light hearted comment. DC was really upset that children were being called stupid and we had decided to try to move school by that point, though it will take a bit of time to organise because of practicalities. But now it has got worse. Last week and today two teachers in classes where DC has done well and the teacher has sung DC's praises (DC does all required homework, does not disrupt classes, puts hand up to speak) talked to DC as though DC had done something very bad and that he deserved to be treated really badly. DC very upset. I strongly suspect that the teachers are intentionally trying to take DC down a peg or two because someone has said they are too much of a smarty pants. DC is quiet and can come across as quietly confident, but DC is not confident at all deep down.

The new head is a chocolate teapot who has brought in a series of changes to rules which appear to be designed to humilate and shame children.

Any brilliant ways of dealing with this while DC has to attend? If I try to talk to the teachers they will think that I am trying to tell them what to do and it will make things worse for DC. If I tell them that DC is in fact not confident and is in some ways quite vulnerable, they will pick on him. I am not joking unfortunately.

I wish I could home school but to set that up would take just as long as finding a better school.

Obviously I'm not saying don't teach them compassion. But I'm saying be very clear with them about what bullying and abuse is and that we should save our compassion for those capable of returning it. That it's important to be kind to ourselves too and not be around people who treat us or others cruelly.

I’ve worked in many schools and whilst I’m not saying that there aren’t some awful teachers, they are definitely few and far between in this day and age. Teachers are put on support plans for the most minor issues these days that the chances of several teachers in the one school bullying a child is extremely unlikely!
I have however, seen many children who lie and who back up others to make false allegations against teachers and back up their friends when they are in the wrong. The behaviour and attitudes teachers have to put up with at the moment are absolutely shocking. When I first started teaching the vast majority of parents were supportive when notified about their child’s unacceptable behaviour and now it’s much more likely that they will be critical of the teacher claiming their little angel can do no wrong. There’s no way any teacher is going to have the time and energy to ‘pick on’ a delightful child who is following the rules. I’m certainly not buying the fact that there’s more than one teacher in the one school doing this! The more likely scenario is that your child is exaggerating or making it up. It’s also more likely that your child’s behaviour and attitude is not as good as you’re making out. Teachers see many students the same age and will have a better idea of what is acceptable or not. Unfortunately in my experience too many parents have low standards of what they expect in terms of behaviour and the way their child speaks to others.

Couldn’t agree more @Foostit .

Whenever discussions about ‘teachers being horrible’ in some capacity are started on Mumsnet, people bring up examples from 20+ years ago of teachers doing things that simply wouldn’t and couldn’t happen in our contemporary school environment today.

Safeguarding training and implementation is much more rigorous, for starters. Policies and procedures within schools for dealing with incidents between staff and students are much more rigorous and they are inspected by Ofsted. Students have much more power within schools than parents think through initiatives such as student councils and student voice programmes that didn’t exist when I was at school 20 years ago. In many schools students are actually too empowered now. They know they will be believed and supported over their teachers. I’ve seen several colleagues have their careers destroyed over the years by vindictive students who have made up malicious claims against teachers. There are some awful teachers who shouldn’t be in the profession - yes of course - but there are also many nasty, vindictive and manipulative young people out there who will happily deflect their own failures onto a teacher and show no remorse when that teacher suffers due to their lies. Look at the teacher in France who got beheaded because a student made up lies about what he had said in class so that she would get away with not having done her work.

I’ve been teaching for a long time in a lot of different settings and I have certainly met more manipulative, bullying young people in my time than I have teachers fitting that description. The bleeding hearts on here claiming that children should always be believed etc are completely naive. Children have just as much capacity to lie and deceive with deliberate intent as adults do. There are always two sides to every story and we all know that children can and do say anything to get out of trouble. Last year I was accused of saying all sorts of heinous, sackable things by a child who took a dislike to me because I refused to allow her extensions on her coursework. She wanted to make me the villain of the story so she wouldn’t have to acknowledge her own failures. Her parents lapped it up and I was hauled into a meeting with the Head. Thankfully because another colleague had been close by and witnessed the conversation of which this child had gone home and fabricated a completely different version, I was exonerated. But without that colleague happening to have been there, that could have been my career over. So. Not all children are innocent little angels I’m afraid. In a school, teachers are bound by professional standards and contractual obligations. We can lose our jobs if we cross a line with a student. A student doesn’t lose anything if they make up shit about a teacher - legally they still have to be educated. So the balance of probability in a he said she said situation between a teacher and student, for me, always lies with the teacher.

The behaviour of some of the teachers at DC's school is utterly disgraceful, and it is appalling that you assume a child who you do not know is lying just because they are a child. I have had yet another meeting yesterday, and the sheer ignornance of child development research, children's needs, incompetence of the very senior member of staff, and the fact that they have completely forgotten key things from the last few weeks is beyond a joke. I am utterly disgusted. This is not because they disagreed with me, they agreed and agreed to take things forward to get DC moved (ffs - 3 weeks and still not moved), they also agreed with the other points made. Instead of an emphasis on understanding what everyone was saying, there was posturing and at times not wanting to back down just for the sake of it. Yes, staff members there are saying very inappropriate things to children and what I have seen myself is one of these teachers mocking children.

You only have to read the staffroom posts to see that school staff cannot cope and that children are being failed left right and centre. You only have to read the posts on this thread to see that attitudes are unacceptable.

Upthread you will find a post by someone who is professionally involved, it would help your judgement to read that carefully.

The teachers who are wonderful at the school present the learning in a neutral way, deal with discipline effectively and do not make personal comments or give unnecessary punishments, they are patient, calm and continue with this day after day after day. They are worth their weight in gold. Even those who lose their temper are doing great. The teachers on this thread however who have tried to minimise, victim blame, make excuses have sounded incompetent and unprofessional.

I see that you have had a lot of problems, but this is not a thread about you. I hope that you are not assuming my DC is lying just because a child has lied about you? What a ridiculous, unhelpful post for this thread.

The terrible terrorist act you refer to in France was about things getting out of control on social media. Blaming the child who started it is beyond belief and incredibly irresponsible.

@Keyryder I am sorry to hear about all this, and I agree with you, teaching children emotional intelligence is really important.

I hope you can get your little one out of this situation op. I'm glad he has a mother who is clued in and has his back.

I am leaving the thread now but I would like to say thanks again to all of the super helpful comments - and thanks to the batshit comments too as they did give an insight into what DC's dreadful teacher is thinking.

I completely fell out of my window of tolerance last night I was so hacked off and so if my posts were a bit sharp I apologise.

I have realised that we cannot trust DC's school to act effectively in relation to anything, even if the intentions of the person I met with yesterday are good, and so I am concentrating on helping DC understand, have strategies and cope with everything. We got to the point where we were laughing today about an idea that I inform the teacher that DC was now best buddies with the person they are sitting with, and DC will act as though they are best buddies and join in with their rowdy behaviour for one lesson, and the teacher would then move them before the end of the lesson for sure. I don't think we will go through with this, but it was therapeutic coming out with crazy scenarios.

It is quite sad really as the school was so lovely last year.

Anyway, I am out, thanks again to all the contributors.

@derivativation Oh FFS! 🙄😂
You’re definitely ‘one of those parents’
If your child is picking up on even a fraction of your derogatory attitude towards their teachers then it figures that they will be rude to their teachers. The way you speak to people who have a different opinion to you is extremely patronising. Maybe you need to do some research. In case you hadn’t noticed there’s a major recruitment crisis in teaching at the moment and unfortunately parents like you are an increasing part of the problem. I bet you’ll be the first to complain in a few years when your DC is in danger of failing his GCSEs because there is no suitably qualified teacher to teach him.

Foostit - you sound like "one of those teachers". How you can call derivativation patronising when your own post smacks of a patronising attitude beggars belief. She's a concerned parent. I've been through it and met quite a few nasty teachers. So many are unprofessional and think they know best - just like you sound. Eurggh!

Absolutely!!! Love this

It’s interesting you call someone else patronizing, when you don’t seem to have ever considered how your own tone represents your profession. And before you give me “she started it!” remember that you are the teacher, not her. It’s your job to set a good example of respectful disagreement.

Of course teachers could not possibly know best. Parents and their perfect babies know best and of course they believe every word they go home and tell them. “Oh quick! Let’s get baby Sebastian Julius Arkwright-Law moved from this awful place. Can you believe they called him rude?”

Oh here’s another one! 🙄😂
Maybe the teachers actually do know best given that it’s their actual job and what they trained to do! ! Does anyone who doesn’t do your job tell you how it should be done? It’s utter bollocks to assume that there are all these nasty teachers out there in this day and age. The days of dunce caps and throwing boats rubbers are long gone! Unfortunately so are the days of parents supporting schools and disciplining their children. If you’ve been through it as you claim and have encountered several ‘nasty teachers’ then it’s more than likely that you are the problem and you refuse to accept that your little angel can do any wrong.

😂😂😂
I shouldn’t laugh but this is so true!

Tbf of course there will be some nasty teachers. There’s bad in every single profession going!

an acquaintances daughter actually secretly recorded how she was spoke to by one particular teacher. Teacher was given warning and parents were brought in for a meeting and apologised too. child left to attend another local secondary and she is thriving.

sometimes it is the environment and a minority of those within it.

😂
You have unintentionally summed up the shit teachers have to put up with!
Firstly where did I say that I was a teacher? Secondly, why is it acceptable for people working in any other profession to be rude and patronising but not teachers? Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds? This attitude is a huge part of the problem! Parents have no respect for teachers because a teacher once threw chalk at them in 1982 and therefore all teachers are awful and need to be told how to do their jobs! It’s fine to abuse them and they can’t possibly defend themselves because they must be professional at all times! 🙄😂
I bet you also comment on the Daily Fail moaning that they have too many holidays. No other profession has to endure this, correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think doctors have to endure parents telling them that they’re wrong in their diagnosis to the same extent. Plus if you were remotely abusive in a surgery you would be asked to leave. There’s something very wrong with the levels of abuse teachers are expected to put up with. This thread is evidence of that!

Definitely agree with that, just as there are in every profession but highly unlikely it will be several in the one school as the OP and a few others are insinuating! I also know of a teacher who was recorded, she did shout. However, the delightful child in question conveniently didn’t record herself being racist towards the teacher! I was in the classroom at the time and witnessed the racist remark. Of course when the parent complained she refused to believe her little darling could possibly have made that remark. The teacher was a trainee and almost quit because she was so upset by the whole incident. The teacher then had to record all lessons with that class for the remainder of her placement. That child was not popular after that! It could have been very damaging to the teacher in question.

I have always found it interesting that a pupil (that is apparently perfectly behaved) can get the phone out of their bag, get through the security screen, flip through to the recording app, press record, whilst not looking at the phone and only ever getting the exact evidence that they need. All whilst being shouted at by a teacher that doesn't spot the child doing this.

Doesn't this strike anyone else as being slightly disingenuous?

@FrippEnos
Bit naïve of you to to think clips can’t be edited! Are you seriously suggesting that me as an adult witnessing the comment should be ignored because the child only pressed record after she made the comment? Yet another example of the type of parents forcing teachers out of the profession!

Tbf I think it was a last resort as it had been going on for some time but a bit like on this thread the child wasn’t really believed and was just seen to be a bit of a trouble maker.

in her new school she is doing brilliantly and getting countless certificates at the end of the week. Quite the change.

@Foostit and @macap

Two very different responses to a post.
@Foostit
As an ex teacher my response would be to see the whole clip, un-edited because as you inferred it is very likely to have been already recording and not include the whole situation.
But my point still stands isn't it amazing how the clip only includes evidence of abuse and not the context.

@macap

It may well have been a last resort, but if its and every lesson occurrence then its should be the full recording and not only the bit with the teacher's response. And just to make things clear many classrooms have video cameras in them that have disputed the footage taken by the pupil.

There are far too many pupils that believe that they can do as they like and that recording and editing a clip to give only half the story makes them some sort of hero. When they have spent much of the lesson winding the teacher up and only showed a 2 minute clip.

I do secretly love it when the head says, "ok, let's check the CCTV." and the apparent 'angel-child' backtracks on their accusations faster than a speeding bullet.

I quite often use the, 'its ok, we'll check the CCTV.' to get the truth out of a child. It saves a lot of time when getting to the bottom of disputes.

Corrected it:

’there are also many nasty, vindictive and manipulative teachers out there who will happily deflect their own failures onto a child and show no remorse when that child suffers due to their lies.

I have certainly met more manipulative, bullying teachers in my time than I have children fitting that description. The bleeding hearts on here claiming that teachers should always be believed etc are completely naive. Adults have just as much capacity to lie and deceive with deliberate intent as children do. There are always two sides to every story and we all know that teachers can and do say anything to get out of trouble.’

It’s strange how so many teachers speak with such contempt about kids. Not just about parents but children. I work in the nhs and have had abuse, rudeness etc. But I would never speak about patients the way teachers do about children online. All this ‘darling Sebastian’ kind of stuff, saying kids are manipulative and liars. Unpleasant. I saw it during the pandemic too. The way so many teachers spoke about kids was horrid.

I have been lucky as a parent. Despite having a bully teacher myself growing up, my kids have had brilliant teachers. They are now at uni but we met so many great teachers along the way. Only one bad teacher and three kids at uni. Not bad going! Some are my friends today. We had a good working relationship and shared laughs too. They were responsive and helpful and largely kids respected them. They had a hard job and did it so well. They had my respect too. And I supported them on the (rare!) occasions my kids did wrong. We worked as a team. I always emailed the head with positive feedback when teachers went above and beyond.

I am so glad that they were not like some of the teachers on this thread and MN in general.