To expect parents in mid '70's to host Christmas with very young children?

[Birminghamx]

I’m one of three children , all of whom have two children. We’re all in late’30’s, early ‘40’s. Two, three years ago my elder brother and I hosted Christmas for our parents in turn, both feeling it was the time for the mantle to be passed to our generation. Our parents are in reasonable health but have some issues and of course have slowed a lot. We knew our parents enjoyed the ease and lack of responsibility when we provided Christmas. My sister is unlike us a single parent and last year invited herself for Christmas with her then 5 months old and just 2 year old and the baby was fractious throughout the 5 day stay. None of us live near one another and a Christmas visit means staying over. Our parents made light of it but I know through my mother’s friends that she was so exhausted after the stay that she cancelled engagements for a couple of days.

Now our sister has invited herself again and my brother and I think this unfair. Our parents are making light of it again and say they need to support her more as she’s single (though by choice). In fairness she can’t host as her flat is too small and our parents book hotels when they visit. Neither my brother or I can host parents and sister but both of us are prepared to invite her for New Year to try and resolve this amicably.

My parents are of sound mind so of course the decision is theirs. However I know they’re affected by an unpleasant breakdown in the wider family (niece/cousin) and are terrified of an estrangement with our (frequently difficult) sister.

Do you think my brother and I would be unreasonable to try and intervene, expressing our views to parents and sister that the proposed arrangements are too demanding on our parents. Our sister has already tried to counter arguments by saying they can buy “easy meals” and eat out (at my parent’s expense), though the reality is this matters little to the strain. Do you think we’re unreasonable in regarding mid ‘70’s as too old for hosting Xmas for several days with very young children?

She has vaguely answered this by saying they are hosting in laws, she also says they alternate each year between in laws and parents, so really the parents should have been with them last year but weren't as they obviously stayed home to host the sister and grandchildren.

OP refuses to say what happened the years that her parents were invited to hers and her brothers, one can assume that the sister and children were not invited to either and that is most likely why the parents chose to stay home to host her last year instead so she wasn't left on her own for three years running.

Same thing has obviously happened this year, parents are supposedly welcome (although OP goes on to say they don't have room for them this year because they are hosting in laws?), so the parents have chosen to stay home and host sister who would otherwise be on her own again.

OP doesn't want the sister to be a burden on her parents, she wants her to go to one of her social circle instead(!), so is trying to intervene to put a stop to it, but by not ever inviting their sister themselves, OP and her brother are really putting their parents in an awful position, of course they don't want to see their other daughter and two young grandchildren on their own while they are all off together pretending she doesn't exist. Of course they would choose to host her, even though it is hard work for them.

Unless OP wants to offer an extremely reasonable solution like you've proposed, then she needs to but out and keep her opinions to herself about what everyone else chooses to do with their Christmas holidays.

According to my parents & mil at that stage of life it's a big NO. I agree it depends on the individuals health & fitness but that's the case for any age.

Speaking as a parent who is unlikely to ever have Grandchildren (by choice, of my kids, not by misfortune), I can't imagine not wanting to see the children for Christmas. It really is not the same without having the pleasure of watching the joy on the faces of youngsters as they open gifts and eat their body weight in goodies. I think I would sacrifice a few days of tiredness for the pleasure of having the babies there with me and I'm not a million miles away from your parents' ages. As parents, we often grumble about events and how tired they make us but I'm quite sure that we would rather host those events rather than not have them at all. If your parents were very elderly, I may advise otherwise, but they are only in their 70s and I'm sure they can make this decision for themselves.

Exactly 💯

@fromthegecko as pp have nit picked every last point the OP has made she has gone to great lengths to give more context, some of her post from yesterday evening which explains why her sister's behaviour changed from age 13 and cauded Christmas to be so fraught for them all as a family is quoted here, that's why the bullying is relevant to Christmas:

'My sister was so keen on achieving she was totally intolerant of the boys (usually boys) who messed around in class. They reacted and for a term my brother had to see that she was safe leaving the school. About this time, aged about 13 years she started having strong beliefs on various issues, some laudable eg environmental but she took it much further than the average 13 year and started to lose friends and become much more a loner. She got to a good uni of course but the didn't come home for Christmas holidays sometimes. Christmas you see has been an issue for years, it hurt my parents when their 19 year old didn't come home but it was her choice of course. She became insistent in her mid teens that anything she liked about Christmas became a Christmas tradition and we must have it every year eg having a certain meal on Boxing Day and going to the ballet on Christmas Eve. Not bad traditions but totally driven by her. She didn't come home for a couple of Christmases in her '20's then did. We didn't have the expected Boxing Day meal and she walked out and my parents didn't see her for 18 months! I was criticised in one post by pouring over articles on autism and personality disorders to find something that makes sense. Wouldn't other people do that for their sister? Any kindly conversation as to whether she'd benefit from counselling (though it's an assessment I think she needs) are brushed off furiously. I tried to do a simple post on just one issue as the whole family situation is so complex. I still haven't mentioned the worst of her behaviour and don't intend doing so but the post was a mistake. I've been accused of scapegoating her when we've lived through so much effort by myself, brother and parents to ease the situation.
Many people have misinterpreted my saying she was a single parent and I'm guessing a lot of the hostility is from single parents who think I was putting them down. I was purely making a factual statement, over a third of my friends are single parents. It never occurred to me that anyone would take that negatively, it's not the 1970's. Yes it was by choice, my sister told me what she was going to do before she became pregnant. I know someone expressed disbelief that anyone would do this In London. Most people wouldn't but her mindset is so different from most peoples. Her pure determination and single mindedness ensures that she copes much better with a professional job and two very young children than most of us would, including me.
Some people have made helpful suggestions and my brother and I have discussed next year. This year we're leaving it as it is. Next year we may suggest a large airbnb for my parents, sister's family and my family (brother will be with in laws). Alternatively I might suggest that my parents have a holiday, cruise maybe and sister comes to me. I don't see how anyone could object to these suggestions but I know my sister might. The person who didn't see her parents for 18 months because of the 'wrong' meal cooked on Boxing Day is still lurking in there and I know my parents will fear that these suggestions may lead to estrangement. Difficult for lots of posters to get their head around but that is the reality of our situation. I'm hoping this conversation ends soon and thank you to those contributors who posted helpful comments even if critical.'

I hate myself for being bothered enough to work it out, but...here is what I think happened:

In the beginning, the parents had a big house, and things were different, but then they downsized.

Three years ago, one of OP and DB had the parents and the other had in-laws, and two years ago it was the same, but the other way round. Neither has space for sister but it doesn't matter because at this point she was in the bosom of her short-lived nuclear family, complete with in-laws.

Last year she was alone, and the parents hosted her, turning down an invite from OP or DB. The same looks likely to happen this year.

Everyone lives miles apart.

OP wants her parents to come to her at least every third year, but that's not possible without leaving out sister altogether. OP thinks that would be fine because sister is a pita.

It's clearly a problem of accommodation and that's how it could be fixed (hotels or rentals). Sister being a pita is irrelevant.

Doesn't everyone go through this sort of thing? Until the older generation passed on, my family xmases needed an excel spreadsheet to work out. And people are very variable as to how much they will put up with by way of airbeds, and roaming around the country until everyone has been visited.

Why don’t you offer to host Christmas and help your parents out/welcome your sister (rather than exclude her). I’m sure she would be very grateful.
Being a single parent is hard work.

How about you and your brother, who have less stress in your lives and more energy, muck in and make things easier for your parents and your sister at your parents’ house.

My dad is 75 and was on a ladder sanding the old masonry paint off the front of our house last week because he's a perfectly normal person and thought it needed it. He also fitted our new loft boarding a few months ago because he knew we're short of space (we weren't bothered but he was adamant!) My mom is out every day, shopping in town or here there and everywhere. They also look after our toddler once a week (and beg for more time as a family together too!)

I don't really care what OP has said. Yes her sister might be tricky at times but wanting to spend Christmas with your whole family and being ok with leaving your only sister and nieces left out is just shit in the extreme.

Nothing in any of her posts suggest someone that is vile or disruptive or awful at all. Tricky? Potentially yes.

What kind of person could bear the thought of being together at Christmas with everyone including their parents while their single sister and small children are at home alone. Not me.

Unless OP is going to come back with some drip feed that actually her sister is an axe murderer, then no, she isn't the problem. It's you.

To add, my cousin has schizophrenia. It came on very suddenly and so we are not immune to what actual serious mental health issues can do to a family and we threw her a massive 50th birthday party last week because despite her issues we love her and she is family. We will never stop surrounding her with love because she deserves it more because she is struggling, not less.

A very helpful solution to the problem.

OP, notwithstanding your sister who sounds very difficult, you're coming across as difficult and overbearing. It sounds like you are trying to control and orchestrate your entire wider family's Christmas.
Your sister is going to your parents and it sounds like she's already come
Up with ideas on how to minimise stress. Do you want to join them? Great! If not, spend Xmas with your own family.

Didn't you know that when you pass a certain age you must be spoken to in words of no more than one syllable, veeeery slowly and VERY LOUDLY. After all, you're an idiot now who never held down a responsible job, managed large teams and organised the whole family whilst doing so. Now, go and sit down deary and don't you worry your, obviously, over-tired mind with this adult conversation.

I'm a 77 year old widow (with health issues and arthritis). Last year I hosted Christmas Day for 13 and afterwards I did feel knackered but it didn't do me any harm. I felt a sense of achievement. This year I will host for 10 with my oldest granddaughter helping me and thank goodness I still have my hostess trolley!! It is good for older people to do these things. I'm sure your parents want to host your younger sister so they give her a bit of a break and spend time with the little ones. I have slowed down a lot but can still put on a 'show' when needed. I lost my only daughter to breast cancer 12 years ago so I do this to try to keep both sides of the family together - her daughters with her cousins. My house isn't huge but we got in a garden table to add seating and everyone was included. That's what Christmas is all about - 'there was no room at the Inn'! My advice is to try to get everyone together, at least for one meal and let the cousins mingle!! Don't worry about parents doing too much but allow the spirit of Christmas to prevail. Us oldies can have an afternoon nap when everyone's gone home!!

OP, I'm sorry you're having to deal with this situation (caring for your parents) and even sorrier you came here for some backup but ended up having to deal with people who are so offended by you having a problem with someone who is clearly selfish, narcissistic and expecting more from your parents than she is ever likely to give to her own children. I understand how much you can love a sibling but hate what they're doing to someone you love. It's not fair. The single-parent brigade are after you but having read all your posts, you're def not in the wrong. You're a concerned daughter who doesn't want to see her parents suffer in their last good years. I totally get it.

YABVU.

You actually sound rather horrid.

This theory that all the people who disagree are single parents... It's been posited a few times on here. Nope, very happily married parent, thanks.

My parents are the same age, but for various reasons I won't go into, host.

However, over the last few years the dinner in particular I could tell was a stress.

Last year I suggested 'so we have more time with you not in the kitchen' (didn't want her embarrassed or anything by saying I know your struggling) how about we bring starters, my sister and hubby bring dessert, and my brother and family bring some 3asy picky bits we can just wacky in the oven for 20 minutes in the evening? This meant she only had the main meal to cater for, which is a big deal, but it definitely took the edge off and it made it more a family affair and conversation starter! We are doing the same this year. And obviously when we finished eating I just said loud enough for everyone to hear, right let's all take through our plates, we know where the dishwasher is! Only a little thing, but it took the edge off if that makes sense?

We also put in a movie instead of a game after lunch these days, means they can nap on the sofa or have a proper rest. Kids are happy with their new toys and a movie. And it's easier than a game! Idilic as a game sounds!

If your mums like mine, she will want to hold on to family Christmases for as long as possible, needing a few days off after will feel worth it to her.

Good luck.

Being in their 70s, unless there are medical issues I've missed, is neither too old to host, nor too old to tell your sister they don't want to host. But it is a time in life where they might want to spend all opportunities to see their children/grandchildren. If they need to take some down time afterwards that's also ok. It's too late for this year but why not next year look into renting somewhere, where all of your family can stay? Then all the grandchildren can play with each other, you can say "right mum and dad, relax, us siblings will take it in turns to cook/pay for a meal out"... and no family rift needs to happen. If it's a success then you could do it every other year. And maybe it would plant a seed in your sister's mind that it's time she started hosting. Psychologists will tell you that family times like Christmas are often fraught because we all revert to our family "roles". So if your sister has traditionally been the difficult youngest sister she will be that person. It probably infuriates her as she's not that person otherwise. You'd be wise to think about what your family "role" has always been. At a guess I'd say older sister always trying to compensate for your younger sister's bad behaviour... and protecting your parents from it. It's time for you all to reassess these behaviours. And a change of location might help everyone.

As similar to your parents I would prefer to have my family with me at Xmas and put up with tiredness afterwards. You could cook the Xmas meal at theirs which is what’s happening here this year.
In any event it’s their decision

I think the divide is more likely between PPs with sibling rivalries of their own, and the rest.

Or maybe between old and young? As an older person, I'm offended by the idea that people in their 70s can't make their own decisions. And also, have the old-fashioned idea that xmas is a time to include everyone, even the PITAs. So, less of the psychodrama, more of the looking for practical ways to make that happen.

When I was single I always felt like a second class citizen, and now I know I wasn’t imagining it

I completely get where you’re coming from, having read all of your posts OP. As soon as you started explaining her personality, I immediately thought ‘neurodivergence’. I am somewhat like your sister but without the ability to see if I am affecting other people. I pick up on every little thing around me. But at the same time I am head strong and make it very clear how I feel about things. As she does, but perhaps because she’s removed from the closeness of immediate family, she feels your parents time is owed to her and their grandchildren? I completely understand that you are trying to protect them but ultimately it is their decision and to speak up would cause those children to probably be cut off from their wider family, entirely. If your goal is to ensure they have the support they may need in the future, then you would maybe best just playing along. The baby will be a year older, as will the older niece and this should make things easier. A baby taken away from what they know and into a strange environment around strange people, is very unsettling for them as you’ll know. Regardless of how your sister behaves, they are just children. To push for her to not even come at Christmas would most likely mean she’ll cut contact. That’s the outcome. I wouldn’t want my nieces to be alone with a possibly very difficult and aggressive situation. For most of the year I imagine she’s at arms length. Like you say, tolerate her this year and next year make plans to remove yourselves from separation by air b’n’b-ing a large property for all of you to be accommodated in together or encouraging parents to go away for a break. Book it and pretend it’s a surprise form you so she doesn’t try to muscle in on it. Then if she wants to come still she can book an air bnb or stay in your parents home, or whatever suits. ND/personality disorders if she does have these issues are not her fault, she can’t help how her brain is ‘wired’ no matter how hard it is. But if she was aware of how she was affecting other people, she may balk against it as seems the case previously, or may give her food for thought.

My youngest is autistic with very high needs (9) Family life can be very difficult and much of our social activities revolve around him because of this. I try my best to do things with his 2 older brothers but they accept that how their younger brother reacts to things (often sensory overload and meltdowns) is part of life no matter how unfair it seems. I’m only sharing that to give insight into where I’m coming from. My middle son also has just about got diagnosis for ASD and ADHD…and way more capable to the outside world but very difficult at home. I have to tell myself all the time he can’t help how he reacts, but because he is so much more capable seemingly, it’s very hard to separate that out in my head in the heat of the moment. We put accommodations in place and use techniques to help him calm and try to think a step at a time. Because at the end of the day, albeit he may seem capable on the outside, internally is a highly anxious and driven individual that is controlling everything around them in order to know what’s happening.

Has anyone ever dared broach your sister about any of these suspicions?

Exactly this! A lot of imaginative people on this thread