To expect parents in mid '70's to host Christmas with very young children?

[Birminghamx]

I’m one of three children , all of whom have two children. We’re all in late’30’s, early ‘40’s. Two, three years ago my elder brother and I hosted Christmas for our parents in turn, both feeling it was the time for the mantle to be passed to our generation. Our parents are in reasonable health but have some issues and of course have slowed a lot. We knew our parents enjoyed the ease and lack of responsibility when we provided Christmas. My sister is unlike us a single parent and last year invited herself for Christmas with her then 5 months old and just 2 year old and the baby was fractious throughout the 5 day stay. None of us live near one another and a Christmas visit means staying over. Our parents made light of it but I know through my mother’s friends that she was so exhausted after the stay that she cancelled engagements for a couple of days.

Now our sister has invited herself again and my brother and I think this unfair. Our parents are making light of it again and say they need to support her more as she’s single (though by choice). In fairness she can’t host as her flat is too small and our parents book hotels when they visit. Neither my brother or I can host parents and sister but both of us are prepared to invite her for New Year to try and resolve this amicably.

My parents are of sound mind so of course the decision is theirs. However I know they’re affected by an unpleasant breakdown in the wider family (niece/cousin) and are terrified of an estrangement with our (frequently difficult) sister.

Do you think my brother and I would be unreasonable to try and intervene, expressing our views to parents and sister that the proposed arrangements are too demanding on our parents. Our sister has already tried to counter arguments by saying they can buy “easy meals” and eat out (at my parent’s expense), though the reality is this matters little to the strain. Do you think we’re unreasonable in regarding mid ‘70’s as too old for hosting Xmas for several days with very young children?

I don't understand your post @Commonsense22
I've not spent Christmas with my elderly parents for almost 20 years owing to distance and their health.

My sister was so keen on achieving she was totally intolerant of the boys (usually boys) who messed around in class. They reacted and for a term my brother had to see that she was safe leaving the school.

This is a really interesting couple of sentences. Really interesting. Because when a child starts to develop what you think is a PD, what you are looking for is trauma. The first thing identifiable as trauma in your story, is framed as her being intolerant and getting the consequences of that. Not this:

She started to have a really hard time at school. Her classroom was chaotic, and not managed well. She wanted to learn and tried to make her learning environment by tackling the disruptive students. They reacted with bullying so bad that she wasn't safe at school. My parents and the school didn't deal with it and my brother had to stop her being attacked.

I think you need to explore your feelings with a counsellor. Your script is so fixed in your head, and I think in your family, and you are all so fixed in your roles, I don't think you can actually see it. You get something from her being the fuck-up. Work out what that is. Normally it's status and normally that's because there's a paradigm of black sheep/golden child. That's typically formed by parents. You all talking about how terrible your sister is really suggests that you are subconsciously being the 'good one' to avoid the clear disapproval that comes from being the 'bad one'. For example, in this case, everyone talking about you behind your back, saying you're going to be a bad mother, even though you are a good one.

Counselling can pick this apart for you.

And what @sandyhappypeople says.

I suspect OP can't see it because it's incredibly pernicious and attractive to be the golden child. I know people who died in the role, so strong is the pull. All the time martyring themselves doing care and complaining about the black sheep who has boundaries.

It's actually easier to be the black sheep in the end because at least there's separation.

She is your sister and you should love her unconditional... Why exactly? @sandyhappypeople Just interested, is it the blood is thicker than water thing? And is that necessarily true - apart being from factually correct scientifically?

You seemed to suggest that anyone staying with elderly relatives for more than 48h was unreasonable.
I was pointing out that if your relatives life far / abroad, that's the only option bar not seeing them at all. I wasn't specifically referring to Christmas although it applies too.

Once money has been spent on travel, it's rarely realistic to book a hotel.

You really are putting words/thoughts into @Birminghamx post. She says her sister was intolerant of the boys messing around in class, disrupting her learning. She states her parents and the school didn't deal with this, not unusual as we know, therefore her brother who was there at the school had to keep her safe. A loving brother and obvious thing to do, and the OP sounds sympathetic to her sister. Where does this 'golden child' narrative come from? OP has already said she was the lazy, unambitious one, and that she loves her sister. 🤷 So I really hope you're not a counsellor@MrsTerryPratchett

You seemed to suggest that anyone staying with elderly relatives for more than 48h was unreasonable.
I was pointing out that if your relatives life far / abroad, that's the only option bar not seeing them at all. I wasn't specifically referring to Christmas although it applies too.
Once money has been spent on travel, it's rarely realistic to book a hotel.

@Commonsense22 but this post isn't about a foreign travel situation. And even when everyone is in the UK, I would also suggest that staying with elderly relatives for more than 48hrs is a bit much.

In her own home, which is presumably set up to be safe for 2 small children, where she knows where everything is and can control the environment, is very different. SOME babies sleep a lot. Some babies cry a lot instead.

I think this is such an odd thing to make a comment on.
I suggested an adult daughter could help with the cooking on Christmas Day.
You're saying this is impossible as she has two children with her.

There would be 3 able-bodied adults in the house.
Are you saying it's impossible for those children to be cared for?

Why didn't she just say 'she was happy at primary school, but at secondary school she was physically bullied by several boys in her class for being "different"'? (I'm sure OP didn't mean to make it sound as though she brought it on herself.)

I'm a single parent of two children, my parents are in their late 80s and still insist on us going there. They don't like coming to mine, as they are more comfortable at theirs. I can cook (with my very able dad, who enjoys it), and wash up, and they get to see the grandkids. My brothers live in France and Scotland and if my parents didn't see us, they would be alone at Christmas. They would much rather be with their grandchildren. Sometimes I would like to be with friends instead, but that's not an option, and that's fine, as they won't be around for ever, and the more memories my kids have of them, the better. Mid-70s isn't even old!

Because 'different' has a whole range of meanings... OP would have been equally criticised for 'othering' her sister. Instead, she saw that her sister wanted to learn, the boys, it was mostly boys, she said, disrupted that so her sister remonstrated with them. Many kids are frustrated by their learning being interrupted, it doesn't mean they're 'different'; few are brave enough to confront the disrupters, who are usually an annoying minority in my experience. OP is admiring of her sister's drive and ambition throughout.

Ignore the people wilfully side tracking and trying to make out your sister is the poor downtrodden hard-done-by pauper in a tiny council flat struggling to afford her children and likely to be alone and miserable at Christmas, it is very clear thats not the case.

Unfortunately all you can do is encourage and support your parents in saying 'no' to her when she attempts to invite herself for Christmas. They have a standing invite annually at either yours or your brothers homes. When they feel that hosting your sister is too much they can decline her self-invite and come and stay with you or DB.

You can't do more than that. Telling your sister she is being unreasonable to your parents will result in more family discord and her trying to justify to herself that she is not being unreasonable or rude or unfair, and your parents are likely to suffer the most from that.

I think offering to help your parents out to make the visit easier in advance might be the way to go here. Could you visit to help them with toddler proofing/ fitting stair gates / maybe some of the cooking that can be done in advance? Would arranging for a cleaner to visit before/ after your sister help?

So you don't want your ideal John Lewis family Christmas to be contaminated by a poor person?

Ignore the people wilfully side tracking

OP has clearly spent her life ignoring anyone who suggests her sister isn't responsible for literally everything that goes wrong, including having a fractious baby, being violently bullied at school and not supported with it and, er, living in London and wishing to spend Christmas with her parents.

So don't worry.

Can't you and your DH and your brother and DSIL help? If you have both hosted before you know what needs doing. I am 60 I used to have 24 people for Christmas but I had my Mum and my sister to help. I couldn't do it now with everyone pitching in. It might make your parents unhappy if they feel the are excluding your sister. Your sister might feel sad at being alone. Encourage your sister to help as well.

Bullies will latch onto just about any difference, however trivial, and its not usual to 'explain' bullying because the explanation doesn’t lie in the victim but the bully.

But let's say OP is proud of sister being such an academic go-getter. Good for her. But why then does she think this anecdote is going to go some way to persuading us that sister should be kept away at xmas? I don't get it.

Do it! You owe to you parents a Christmas that they can enjoy and stay the night to travel back boxing day. Ask your sister over Boxing Day, dinner will be cold meat turkey and ham, pickles and pickled onions! So no cooking apart from mash potatoes. That's what I've had for every Boxing Day dinner! Tell her no she's not invited so stay away!! Come to you Boxing Day!

Hi op,

I am not sure why you would intervene as your parents actually say they want to support her more as she is single…?
Seems you are going out of your way to create issue and have your single recently difficult sister and fractious children out of the way when you are there? I mean… Imagine one of your child try to take down the other one coz you were tired after they come visit with their children?

So here are a few idea:

• help her?
• help her kids?
• take a hotel so you can retreat when needed?
• participate for a babysitter?

In any case :

• Do not intervene. Not your house.

Good luck 🌺

As others have said the OP was not clear (and doesn't seem to mention what happened last year) but the thing that is clear is that Grandparents can decide what they want, and hardly surprising they want to host Christmas for grandchildren and their mother. Also clear that OP doesn't like sister - she may be quite justified - hard to say. Maybe OP and/or brother could stay nearby (presumably will have families with them) and go for the day, which would reduce pressure of numbers in grandparents' house.

I hear you. Your sister sounds like one of my daughters - all of it. It’s been a rough ride for me with her (she is not my husband’s daughter. He has witnessed her adult tantrums, nastiness and the effect on me of her lack of contact though). She has also decided that she wants her children to have a grandmother, so there is contact again, but only for them to have me in their lives. Beyond that she has no real interest.

Your parents are lucky to have you, as I am with my other daughter. In their 70s they should be fine coping with the Christmas visit and it may be more stressful for them not to accommodate her and the kids for that visit since they worry about her. Maybe suggest some short cuts for her e.g ready prepared foods from e.g. M&S. Being knackered after a visit like this is no different to being knackered after a holiday for those of us who are older. Needing a week or so of not doing much is pretty normal to recharge. It may become more of an issue for them in years to come, but you don’t know what the future will hold. She might meet a new partner and want to stay at home, or she might even get some treatment for her issues. It’s not good for your mental health/peace of mind to worry about a future that may not come to pass.

just because they were tired after doesn’t mean they didn’t enjoy it at the time ! Sounds like they can make their own mind up and want to see her and their young grandchildren. My baby cried all through Christmas dinner, I mean she was a baby she was allowed no body battered an eyelid you take your family through the highs and lows Christmas dinner doesn’t need to be ‘perfect’ don’t say anything it will cause a huge amount of shit.

And as has also been said, having OP for new year is irrelevant for children who should be able to enjoy Christmas.

Just wanted to say that you come across as very thoughtful, compassionate and pragmatic and I'm sorry you've had so much flak.