To expect parents in mid '70's to host Christmas with very young children?

[Birminghamx]

I’m one of three children , all of whom have two children. We’re all in late’30’s, early ‘40’s. Two, three years ago my elder brother and I hosted Christmas for our parents in turn, both feeling it was the time for the mantle to be passed to our generation. Our parents are in reasonable health but have some issues and of course have slowed a lot. We knew our parents enjoyed the ease and lack of responsibility when we provided Christmas. My sister is unlike us a single parent and last year invited herself for Christmas with her then 5 months old and just 2 year old and the baby was fractious throughout the 5 day stay. None of us live near one another and a Christmas visit means staying over. Our parents made light of it but I know through my mother’s friends that she was so exhausted after the stay that she cancelled engagements for a couple of days.

Now our sister has invited herself again and my brother and I think this unfair. Our parents are making light of it again and say they need to support her more as she’s single (though by choice). In fairness she can’t host as her flat is too small and our parents book hotels when they visit. Neither my brother or I can host parents and sister but both of us are prepared to invite her for New Year to try and resolve this amicably.

My parents are of sound mind so of course the decision is theirs. However I know they’re affected by an unpleasant breakdown in the wider family (niece/cousin) and are terrified of an estrangement with our (frequently difficult) sister.

Do you think my brother and I would be unreasonable to try and intervene, expressing our views to parents and sister that the proposed arrangements are too demanding on our parents. Our sister has already tried to counter arguments by saying they can buy “easy meals” and eat out (at my parent’s expense), though the reality is this matters little to the strain. Do you think we’re unreasonable in regarding mid ‘70’s as too old for hosting Xmas for several days with very young children?

Your sister may well be a bloody nightmare but it's for your parents to manage their relationship with her, not you or your brother.

5 days might be a bit long for her to stay with your parents but it seems they would rather choose that than not see her and her kids at Christmas.

The fact that you and your brother don't have space for your parents this year but also want to somehow ban them from spending Christmas with your sister does not show you in a flattering light.

This is your parents issue to solve and inserting yourself into it is only going to cause more tension and upset. If you make a big deal of it now then you will be the difficult one.

Well I can only go by what the Op herself has written. The majority being her and her brother. Whilst the parents are happy to have her. That’s not a majority. A majority is more like this thread where most people recognise ousting a single mum with two small kids at Christmas is pretty vile.
The constant belittling of the Op. Single by choice trying to make people think it’s her own fault. Used the nice man as a sperm donor . Do you or Op understand you have no idea what went on behind closed doors despite what you and Op think. I guarantee few people choose to be a single parent because the guy was so amazing but you’d rather the hardship of juggling a busy job and raising two small kids in London where it’s super expensive. One income, All the stress, sign me up. Unlikely!
She has a small place…she might have done that on purpose. She lives in London, more likely all she could afford more like. She chose to live there with her high flying career. More likely that’s where she can be employed.
The sister said she was happy to eat out or have ready meals but she won’t compromise? That sounds like she is trying to work out things to be easier during her stay.
Shouting at her dad. Nobody knows how long ago this was but not recent. Nor was there any context. It’s been one long thread putting her sister down.
i could literally pick comment after comment that put her down but I’d be here for hours.

Yes I do know what it is like to have difficult characters in the family and never would I say you can’t come to me, or your other sibling. And we have decided you can’t see your parents either. You have to stay on your own with your two small kids. But hey, after treating you and your small kids appalingly…you can possibly come and see us on New Year, aren’t I charitable. No! Never!

It's so odd when someone posts needing helpful thoughts or advice, but people decide they just want to put the OP firmly in the wrong. It's not very helpful, and not sure what all the furious and judgmental people are actually getting out of criticising instead of helping.
The relationship OP has with her sister is what it is, she hasn't written asking for advice on changing that. And yet...

OP, I wonder if it might work if you invited your sister for Christmas, but not your parents? Would they be sad if they didn't spend it with any of you? Or might they be relieved to have a quiet one? Or invited your sis and your parents too, but arranged a hotel for parents nearby so they had some quiet space of their own to retreat to? Might it be a good idea to have a conversation with your parents and find out what would suit them best?

I think you're being a bit harsh on your sister tbh.

Since she's a single mum, it's natural that she would want to Christmas with some family. If your DPs have said they're happy to have her, keep your nose out.

My sister had a wonderful childhood, she was very happy until she reached her teens. She went to piano lessons, ballet, gym etc and had doting parents. With hindsight we didn't realise the significance of how determined she was. We knew she was determined of course that was obvious and at that time a source of pride for the whole family. If she was determined she would really go for it, my father would often shout "Go girl go". We got on really well, I wasn't envious of her success as I was lazier, a less ambitious character and didn't want to put the effort in. My mother has said with hindsight there were indications at the end of primary school with teachers making a couple of warning remarks. It was at secondary school things got difficult. My sister was so keen on achieving she was totally intolerant of the boys (usually boys) who messed around in class. They reacted and for a term my brother had to see that she was safe leaving the school. About this time, aged about 13 years she started having strong beliefs on various issues, some laudable eg environmental but she took it much further than the average 13 year and started to lose friends and become much more a loner. She got to a good uni of course but the didn't come home for Christmas holidays sometimes. Christmas you see has been an issue for years, it hurt my parents when their 19 year old didn't come home but it was her choice of course. She became insistent in her mid teens that anything she liked about Christmas became a Christmas tradition and we must have it every year eg having a certain meal on Boxing Day and going to the ballet on Christmas Eve. Not bad traditions but totally driven by her. She didn't come home for a couple of Christmases in her '20's then did. We didn't have the expected Boxing Day meal and she walked out and my parents didn't see her for 18 months! I was criticised in one post by pouring over articles on autism and personality disorders to find something that makes sense. Wouldn't other people do that for their sister? Any kindly conversation as to whether she'd benefit from counselling (though it's an assessment I think she needs) are brushed off furiously. I tried to do a simple post on just one issue as the whole family situation is so complex. I still haven't mentioned the worst of her behaviour and don't intend doing so but the post was a mistake. I've been accused of scapegoating her when we've lived through so much effort by myself, brother and parents to ease the situation.

Many people have misinterpreted my saying she was a single parent and I'm guessing a lot of the hostility is from single parents who think I was putting them down. I was purely making a factual statement, over a third of my friends are single parents. It never occurred to me that anyone would take that negatively, it's not the 1970's. Yes it was by choice, my sister told me what she was going to do before she became pregnant. I know someone expressed disbelief that anyone would do this In London. Most people wouldn't but her mindset is so different from most peoples. Her pure determination and single mindedness ensures that she copes much better with a professional job and two very young children than most of us would, including me.

Some people have made helpful suggestions and my brother and I have discussed next year. This year we're leaving it as it is. Next year we may suggest a large airbnb for my parents, sister's family and my family (brother will be with in laws). Alternatively I might suggest that my parents have a holiday, cruise maybe and sister comes to me. I don't see how anyone could object to these suggestions but I know my sister might. The person who didn't see her parents for 18 months because of the 'wrong' meal cooked on Boxing Day is still lurking in there and I know my parents will fear that these suggestions may lead to estrangement. Difficult for lots of posters to get their head around but that is the reality of our situation. I'm hoping this conversation ends soon and thank you to those contributors who posted helpful comments even if critical. Some criticism was deserved and helpful but a few just jumped for character assassination without sufficient evidence.

Some people have made helpful suggestions and my brother and I have discussed next year. This year we're leaving it as it is. Next year we may suggest a large airbnb for my parents, sister's family and my family

Why are you and your brother discussing next year already and trying to micro manage other people without actually involving them in the discussions? It all sounds so controlling and disfunctional - you and your brother that is.

Your sister sounds amazing - if difficult to live with - and must surely be ND in some way. I think your proposed solutions for next year sound like just the thing.

Well I guess to be fair she’s taken some of it on board and is trying to adjust her approach.

But in fairness to posters, op, if there is a massively complicated backstory involving a highly unusual personality profile, you can’t expect answers that take that into account. Broadly speaking, getting involved in your sister and parents plans to try to procure an outcome of your sibling spending Christmas alone ( when that seems not to be what either the parents or the sister have wanted-agreed) is not going to elicit support.

You can’t insist that someone else had a wonderful childhood. The only person who can judge that is your sister.

Every estranged parent says their child had a wonderful childhood and they just can’t understand why they’re NC, there’s simply no reason on earth for it. Insisting that someone else had a great childhood when all of their behaviour indicates otherwise is a really obvious sign that it probably wasn’t remotely the case.

@OolongTeaDrinker Tbf, booking anything over Christmas usually needs to be done months in advance if you want to have choices - same with a holiday or cruise. So coming up with ideas now that could be suggested to their parents in Jan/Feb isn't unreasonable.

It sounds as if the OP and her brother care about their parents and want to look after/spoil them now that they’re older. There’s nothing wrong with that. My DH has started taking his parents on holiday every autumn (just him and his parents), because he loves them and wants to spoil them. His siblings don’t mind.

I have a family member like your sister and they are a force of nature, awe inspiring and exhausting in equal measure. You can’t change them, and they can’t change themselves, so a lot of compromise is needed. I really think your parents might appreciate the break next year, so planning ahead is a good move. I hope you come up with a solution that everyone is happy with.

People can have great chilhoods and also be very difficult people, you know.

They can.

But, mysteriously, everyone who’s been cut off thinks that’s their situation.

In reality, very few people would decide to cut contact with loving, kind parents who have always treated them well for absolutely no reason other than that they’re “difficult”.

I don’t deny that those people exist, but not in the quantities that are reported from those who’ve been cut off (which is all of them).

”…a lot of the hostility is from single parents”.. Jeez Op… Do you have any self awareness? I’m out. Your sister sounds amazing by the way. I hope her and her kids have a great Xmas with ‘your’ parents! Merry Xmas…to them.

I see what you are saying, but my point is the OP and her brother are trying to stage manage their sister and parents for next year already without either party being given any kind of agency; with the OP and her brother having magnanimously decided not to interfere this year - why not involve the whole family in the discussions rather than all this plotting and scheming behind other people's backs?

Your sister does sound difficult OP. The thing I can't get my head around is your parents being in their 70s & you feeling it's too much to have your sister & her children to stay. Everone finds hosting people exhausting regardless of their age but they do it because they enjoy it. Perhaps I'm considering older people in my family. My mil was a member of a hiking club for many years up until her late 70s when she changed to an older persons more gentle walking club & regular swimming sessions. I'm possibly seeing a different perspective of fit & healthy people at this stage of life though.

You sound like a very caring daughter OP but I think I'd leave your parents to decide & admit when they feel having family over becomes too much for them.

@OolongTeaDrinker I suppose they want to do all the legwork and make it easy for their parents.

It’s quite possible that their parents will decline all offers and prefer to spend Christmas wirh their DD and young grandchildren. But having choices isn’t a bad thing and if they decide to go on a luxury cruise by themselves next year, all of their adult children should be pleased for them.

It wasn't my comment...

So you expect her to be alone for christmas given none of you can help hosting? As her parent I wouldn’t leave her home alone either

Of course.

However, OP does not paint a picture of a sister who is merely " difficult ". She sounds very demanding, rigid, and inconsiderate of other's feelings. Some people are just like that.

What is the alternative? Your sister n her own with two little kids? I couldn’t let that happen and I don’t care how cramped we’d be she’d be coming to mine. Camp beds in the lounge and a buffet if we can’t fit round the table. I’m from a very big family. There used to be 15 of us at Christmas. Kids are in a different room from the grown ups - all part of the fun.

God. I think you need to mind your own business.

Well, I think it might have been better to put a little bit more of that information in your OP and first few posts, as how were people supposed to know that she is such a unique character in such unusual circumstances?

Describing her home as ‘too small’ generally implies that someone has less money, rather than that they have actively chosen to live in a tiny flat in South Kensington. Likewise with the ‘single parent by choice’ wording.

Anyway, I hope it all works out to everyone’s satisfaction

Even if a luxury cruise was fun (debatable), retired people might prefer to go in say March, so they can see their actual family for Christmas. It is all so joyless, this constant moaning as though Christmas is nothing but a huge set of chores to get through. It makes more sense to scale back on whatever you're all doing to make it such a faff and just enjoy time together. Go out to a carol service, take the kids to meet Santa, bundle up for a frosty morning walk, decorate the house together, bake biscuits, play silly games... there is so much more to Christmas than washing dishes, it's a shame to lose sight of that.

I think op has already said somewhere that she doesn’t have room for this because of her ILs?

I’m also not sure your comments about judgy pp not being helpful is fair. There have now been some significant drip feeds late in the piece, but if you go back to the original op it comes across as the issues being twofold:

1. Dsis has “ invited herself” before and again now but not hosted like everyone else ie; she isn’t doing her share ( albeit her flat is, we are told, tiny) do why should family have her?

1. Parents are at 70 too old to grapple with either hosting ( although they have accepted) or communicating this to the sister

And that’s pretty much it. So when you say people weren’t giving helpful thoughts or advice, they were: it isn’t right to uninvite your sister.

The posts bewailing the tremendous strain the sister had been on the family since the age of 13 did not emerge until far later in the piece - and even then some people might not have changed their “ helpful advice” from don’t rock the boat if a) you aren’t having her yourself and b) your parents have already agreed to.

There was a section of the thread where it just seemed every suggestion except leaving the sister to fend for herself was slapped down - at which point you think “ why even post asking for opinions when you know what you think ?” There is a similar thread going where a recently divorced man wants to move in his gf of 6 months and start producing new babies with her. He asked for “advice” because his child was begging him not to take these accelerated actions. Everyone but a few said “then don’t.” The op essentially responded “ I’m entitled to do as I please.” There are loads of these endorse my firm decision or nothing threads, and I don’t think they are, as you put it, asking for advice.