To highlight this case of voyeurism in what appears to have been a unisex toilet on private premises?

[BadSkiingMum]

I came across this case of a voyeur who placed phone cameras under the sink in a toilet. Note that this did not even make BBC news - this is on a local London website.

Women secretly recorded by south east London voyeur | This Is Local London

This was a toilet in a hairdresser, so not open to passers by and with the need to make a booking to enter the premises. So it would seem to be a low-risk environment. But unfortunately this did not prevent an employee from committing a crime. While the article is not clear that the toilet was unisex, presumably the offender was able to enter the toilet and place the phones inside because he was using it himself and was therefore unlikely to be challenged.

In my opinion this case suggests that unisex toilets, even those which are in what we could consider to be a relatively 'safe' environment, present greater risk than toilets separated by sex.

No, unfortunately this is the actual universe. Somehow.

Agree. Good faith debate is always worthwhile.

I look forward to that next one catiette.

I just listened to an audio book where a woman was being controlled almost to that point. Fiction.... I hope.

It really does highlight though that there are women who need these single sex spaces who cannot speak up.

I remember I went to a IWD somewhere in London where the women were on the majority immigrants. And the stories that some of these women share is heartbreaking.

It really put it all into perspective. If women who can understand the issues and who have got the ability to campaign do, it gives a voice to those who cannot speak up themselves.

No, unfortunately this is the actual universe. Somehow.

do feel free to tell everyone at length again and again how totes unbothered you are by any of their concerns or feelings.

All through this thread has been hyperbolic accusations of anger, transphobia, aggression by asking for clarification, ranting with the use of two exclamation marks in a post (not even together) and now fury.

And strange how 'some' posters agreeing with each other is seen as "back slapping" while other posters agreeing with each other seems to be entirely acceptable.

Why is this?

Thank you for the kind offer, but I think I’ve used my “terrible woman” quota for this week.

Are you not furious or angry, because it definitely seems it.

I think it’s in insistence of being right. Things like “women who understand these issues” - like the rest of us are stupid. The insistence on an explanation. It gives off the impression that others who don’t agree are either wrong, or must show their reasoning for disagreeing. It comes off forceful, and that’s why phrases like “militant” are used.

“Look how right we all are” - no, thank you - I’m good. It’s not trying to understand a different view, it’s trying everything in your power to disagree with it.

Yeah? Considering you just posted some more emotional manipulation about you being a ‘terrible woman’, I think it is pretty clear that you like to throw around false accusations.

No, I am not angry and not furious. I also don’t believe considering all your posts that you can make statements about insisting on being right without highlighting your own hypocrisy.

I have expressed curiosity in my questions to try and understand the nuances of what you, personally, believe. Questions which have been labelled all sort of things. This is a discussion forum. People post their opinions and people interact with that opinion. They is the way it works.

“women who understand these issues”

This is just another false accusation from you in my opinion. Where have I used these words?

The word ‘stupid’ keeps being thrown around too. I don’t believe posters are stupid. Is this just projection from you?

And ‘forceful’? From the poster who kept doubling down that posters should only be discussing single toilet businesses despite the actual words of the OP among other accusations?

No, I am not angry or furious, I don’t think posters are stupid and I don’t think posters ‘must’ show their reasons for disagreeing. I will ask because I am interested in understanding why people think the way they do. Unlike you from your own words, I do find people’s thought processes interesting and I am interested in finding out more about topics I am discussing. Even reading material I don’t agree with, because that is how I keep evaluating my opinion on issues. So, no not angry or furious. But I am keen though to see the next set of accusations.

Emotional manipulation. What a bold statement.

“It really put it all into perspective. If women who can understand the issues…”

That’s you, right? The rest of us must just be silly, and couldn’t possibly comprehend those issues in our teeny tiny brains.

Yeah, I went back and read my earliest comments. They still stand.

The article linked was about a man, going into a toilet that already existed, in a place he worked. It wasn’t about new toilets, changing toilets, women’s spaces being taken - that one had already not been designated as one. It didn’t represent an erosion or removal of women’s spaces, because it never was one. It didn’t represent men forcing their way into spaces, he was allowed in it. The crime is the issue, the location was never a separate space. It was a leap earlier on the thread, it’s a leap now.

The reason you’re accused of transphobia is because whether you admit it or not, the debate in recent years is fuelled by spaces becoming more gender inclusive because trans people would like access to them. The women’s spaces conversation is the trans conversation, they’re one and the same at this point.

The males you refer to who are involved in that discussion, are trans women. Carry on hiding from it, that’s why the debate even exists, that’s why the spaces are being changed to gender neutral spaces. So any attempt to say otherwise is just a very thinly veiled attempt that those of us outside of it can see through.

We literally all know why the huge online debate about separate spaces even exist. It’s instigated by trans women wanting to use a space you see as your own, and would prefer they were excluded from because of their biological sex.

I see. You have taken exception to my generalised comment about listening directly to what abused women have said they need and working with them to campaign, and taken that to be an insult to you and anyone else who has an opinion I disagree with.

Enough said.

I didn’t misread the words used.

I see, you’re choosing to ignore the rest of the post about how your actual issue is that trans women aren’t welcome in your spaces because they were born male, and that that is the very basis of the debate. You asked for an explanation, received one, and ignored it because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

Enough said.

That's the crux of the argument isn't it.

The thing they are sidestepping around and don't want to come out and say.

What part of ‘women want to retain single SEX based spaces’ has been sidestepped. I’m sick of saying it, other posters are sick of saying it. You’ve been given reasonable argument and evidence to back up why. If a male identifies as anything other than a man, that still includes him. As he is a man. All men.

You and ‘I don’t care but I’ll continue to harp on anyway’ have been chomping at the bit to get your ‘transphobia’ by any means necessary in. That’s what the problem is.
Seen less transparent (pun intended) windows.

You and ‘I don’t care but I’ll continue to harp on anyway’ have been chomping at the bit to get your ‘transphobia’ by any means necessary in.

Yep. It's all a bit desperate.

This is a thread about unisex toilets and why they are a bad idea. The only people clamouring for a trans argument appear to be the people who claim to definitely not want one. Odd.

By males who identify as something other than male, we mean trans women… right? I’d have referred to them as she, not he. But then I also wouldn’t be arguing with them about toilets etc.

We have finally arrived at the point. “Trans women are men, get them out of my space” is transphobia. Not sure we needed a 2 day debate to arrive at that very obvious point, but honestly super pleased we have now.

So when I said however long ago the conversation has become the trans debate, it had. They’d been grouped in with a man identifying as one doing something disgusting. I’ll leave that obvious statement about discrimination there.

No further questions your honour!

Can you read? Stating biological fact is not transphobia. Transwomen are male and don't belong in female only designated spaces. Shout 'transphobia' all you like, it doesn't wash anymore. It's not the gotcha you are desperate for.

What about sports? Should men who identity differently participate in women’s sports? What about rape crisis shelters? Should they attend those with biological women?

If it was about transphobia people would be arguing for transmen (females) to stay out too, they aren't. So it's not transphobic. It’s men for the perpetual hard of thinking.

I don't want the lovely males in my life going into spaces not for them either, does that make me phobic or hateful of them? It's not trans women specific no matter how many knots you tie yourself up in trying to present this as fact. It's males, regardless of race, religion, how one identifies.

You have managed to state how many times you don't care in so many different ways it's surely now a record before you ran out and transphobia was all you had left.

No further questions indeed as you would've been laughed out of court by now. Definitely don't pursue law with your level of the arguments you've shown based on this thread would be my observation.

You have managed to state how many times you don't care in so many different ways it's surely now a record before you ran out and transphobia was all you had left.

Yes, I was going to suggest something more original, maybe mime, interpretive dance, or haiku?

Anything at this stage. Although all of those would make more sense than what's been put forward so far.

I would like to state, for the record, that YOU made this about trans women.
I, and many others, have said over and over and over again that it is about the fact that we don’t want men in women’s spaces. That’s any men.

You are so transparent, you’ve been absolutely DYING to make this conversation about trans women. Why?

The women’s spaces conversation is the trans conversation, they’re one and the same at this point.

That's a bold and inaccurate claim.

Women round the world need spaces free from males.

We only got single sex spaces about ten minutes ago, and had to campaign for them then. Read up on 'the urinary leash'.

There have been some.great campaigns to get toilets built for women in remote regions of the world - our school's done fundraising for these.

If you really don't know about all the reasons that many women need facilities, services and spaces, then I suggest you have a bit of reading to do.

A few may genuinely not grasp the reasons women need services and spaces, but I'd suggest this is a privileged position.

The rest of your post is simply a repeat of accusations you have already made and I have already addressed.

You twisted this to be about trans people. I have not. in fact, you are weaponising transgender people, as are others, in this thread. Again. This is emotionally manipulative.

This discussion is about male pattern behaviour. It is about any male person who seeks access to the toilets female people use. The discussion is about why toilets were originally segregated in the first place for safeguarding female people and why that is still relevant today. Even more so given the technology used. The OP was always discussing male people and how gender neutral toilets impacted female people.

Your continued misrepresentation of my motivations despite me clearly stating that it is about all male people has crossed over to abuse.

I don’t need a law degree to have just spent literally 2 seconds using Google, which clearly states in various places that calling a trans woman “he” can be considered harassment and discrimination.

There are groups of women who want the lifelong debate and campaign for segregated spaces. There are others who want to go to the bathroom, and use whatever service, and give absolutely no mind to whether they’re separated or not. That’s the part I’m happy to keep insisting I don’t care about, personally.

Before the internet became a constant debate about space and identity, I was and remain perfectly happy living my life and allowing others to do the same without constantly telling them they’re not allowed near me.

Abuse and emotional manipulation are big statements. Particularly because I’m yet to lose any amount of patience, or take even the large groups of women telling me off personal enough to cry about.

The point, again, is that that gang/herd mentality (which is quite obviously happening here) doesn’t only alienate the men you’re intending to alienate, it alienates other women too.

My genuine view is that people should live their own lives without constantly bothering themselves about what other people are doing, in lots of areas of life, and spend far less time lecturing people who just don’t want the constant drama.