To highlight this case of voyeurism in what appears to have been a unisex toilet on private premises?

[BadSkiingMum]

I came across this case of a voyeur who placed phone cameras under the sink in a toilet. Note that this did not even make BBC news - this is on a local London website.

Women secretly recorded by south east London voyeur | This Is Local London

This was a toilet in a hairdresser, so not open to passers by and with the need to make a booking to enter the premises. So it would seem to be a low-risk environment. But unfortunately this did not prevent an employee from committing a crime. While the article is not clear that the toilet was unisex, presumably the offender was able to enter the toilet and place the phones inside because he was using it himself and was therefore unlikely to be challenged.

In my opinion this case suggests that unisex toilets, even those which are in what we could consider to be a relatively 'safe' environment, present greater risk than toilets separated by sex.

TRA wonders in on a thread, starts having a go at all of us for being trans phobic. Realises thread has fuck all to do with trans people and then retreats.

Yup. Yawn.

I think toilets, benefit people who need to use them.

Feminist throws some abbreviations and angry words around until someone gets bored of talking to a furious brick wall. Yawn.

That’s not what I asked.
Who gains a benefit out of mixed sex spaces?

Depends who uses them. All people who use toilets benefit from them, whatever the sign is on the door.

Do you think I can’t see where you’re trying to lead me?

It’s a toilet, in a room, that is used for human waste. The end.

Nobody says that you must agree with that point, but that’s your answer. I don’t really see the point in listing the benefits of a toilet?

Thank you, @AccidentallyWesAnderson. Unfortunately, it has rather an unhappy ending for everyone involved...

The little girl remained anxious and upset, and, after a while, she didn't feel able to attend school any more. She quietly slipped away, and because no one was looking, no one really noticed.

The second child, who had listened to the little girl, couldn't do anything more to help her without support from many, many more of the children who, like her, were lucky enough not to be directly affected. She felt frustrated and confused by what she'd witnessed, but there wasn't much she could do about it alone.

Meanwhile, the first child, the one who had argued with the little girl, spent a long time afterwards inexplicably upset by the little girl's distress, complaining about it to everyone they met.

Over time, bullying in the school increased, because, after all, bullies will always bully, and all we can do is mitigate it with common sense and kindness - and that's a numbers game.

The first child, by the way, didn't give up - she did try to spread the word about what had happened, and lobbied the headteacher to make changes. But it was so difficult - not only did the headteacher not listen to her, but several other children, including the second child, devoted a lot of time to telling her she was wasting her time because it was a non-issue anyway.

(On the upside, the English teacher was at least able to use that last little development to teach her classes irony - they all got 9s in their GCSEs).

This is a great way to approach it catiette!

I quite enjoyed writing it! But it's a very sad story, really.

Except I think I got my first and second child mixed up in later developments! 😅

Mixed sex alongside single sex = pretty good.
My DH definitely doesn't want only mixed sex loos. He doesn't want any female of any age wandering into the gents whilst he's using the urinal. And let's not pretend any facility with a urinal isnt meant for blokes, please. Let's not be that stupid.
Actually properly designed and hygienic mixed sex facilities alongside single sex would be dandy. Just changing the signs is a low budget cop out.

A few years ago I watched a film called Swallow . It was about a young woman married to a man who was so controlling that he hired a huge male minder to watch her ALL the time and report back .
After a short while the minder realised the error of his and the husband's ways and helped the woman escape .
The closing scene was of this woman , now free , going about her ordinary life , using a women's bathroom . There were many other ordinary looking women in there , going about their lives ...but so many of these women will have suffered abuse at home , at work , on the street . But here , in this women's bathroom they are safe ; safe from men and the male gaze .
That scene was haunting .
We need single sex spaces .

I went into a mixed sex loo that was the worst of all worlds recently. Cubicles with m or f on the door with communal sinks. In two of the m ones the guys were standing there with the door wide open peeing away. So intimidating. It doesn't take any effort to shut the door surely.

I was just about to ask you thank.... I thought, hang on.... that story took at weird turn.

Mind you, on this thread that should be expected.

Have I fell into a parallel universe in between the first two pages which were mostly sensible posts saying that this being a woman's only loo would have made no difference anyway and just carried on with their day to the later pages of fictional stories of sad children and feminist back slapping?

You do you. Still not wheesting though!

I went into a mixed sex loo that was the worst of all worlds recently. Cubicles with m or f on the door with communal sinks. In two of the m ones the guys were standing there with the door wide open peeing away. So intimidating. It doesn't take any effort to shut the door surely.

Some of them do it deliberately.

"What should happen, is someone doesn’t agree with you, you think that’s fine and totally normal and don’t then barrage them with data to change their mind."

"What is it about people not agreeing with your points that is so genuinely hard to take? It’s at best condescending."

and this

"But in the reverse, whenever we say we don’t agree we’re issues with evidence and an attempt at unwelcome education that goes on, and on, and on."

These are really quite eye opening claims.

When I saw these, I thought, 'Hang on, what is this about? What 'data barrage'. So I went back through this thread because the reality on reading these latest posts in context of reading the thread is discombobulating. That is putting it nicely so I don't get deleted.

Then I realised something. A poster asked me to support my first post with evidence. I had not seen the post and so had not done so. After being asked again (again, this is putting it very mildly) to supply evidence I posted that evidence. Not to the poster who has now stated that there has been a barrage of data presented to 'change their mind'.

I think posted, generally for reader's interest, a YouGov tracker as they have been tracking opinion on this very topic for a few years. And another poster then posted a misinterpretation of the results that I had posted so I simply reposted the data with a correct interpretation.

I believe outside of that, two or three other posters posted links to articles that were giving perspectives. This is hardly fitting of the hyperbole in these statements.

And considering the bulk of the articles posted were because another poster demanded that I support my statement, these statements start being shown in a rather different light.

Nah. It's just a touch of allegory, after 11 painful pages of facts, stats, logic and moving personal anecdote failed to get across why this does make a difference on both a personal and statistically significant scale (to people who don't care anyway... yet who are still here busy emphasising their indifference - and thereby encouraging the increasingly concerted effort to explain; an effort that they're now... condemning...? - hm, my hypothetical teacher's finding ever more fodder for irony lessons here!)

Some people's ideas of what kind of things happen on a discussion board do seem a bit strange, @Helleofabore

"are clearly talking about trans women when they are using the phrase minority of males"

Not at all. I mean that there are a group of male people who seek to access the toilets that female people use. I have stated that this is for numerous reasons.

Rather than randomly attributing motivations to my posts, you could either read where I have clarified this or you could, you know, ask me. Unlike you, I don't find people asking me questions an act of aggression.

In fact, I encourage it because maybe both of us will develop a greater understanding of each other's opinions. It is after all a discussion thread.

Indeed.

I would welcome this too. In fact, on every single thread around this type of topic it’s always the same. Nobody can ever come up with a convincing argument to the contrary. It’s just throwing accusations and getting emotional.

I would welcome well thought out points of view and opinions on why we are wrong to not want mixed sex spaces. But I literally never see them.