Sister living with us, for over a year…to kick her out

[Sophie2525]

My older sister (40 years old) has been living with DH, DD (2years) and myself for over a year, and I don’t know how to get her to leave!

Quick back story, she suffers with depression, and was in a bad financial situation, so we offered her to stay with us to get a job and a place. I genuinely thought she would be gone without a few months.

However, she has worked approx 12 weeks in the last year, constantly giving up jobs, asking people for money. Around 4 months ago I had a calm chat and said she needed to make a plan to leave within 3 months. Soon after she had a break down and was in a&e almost every night saying she wanted to kill herself, I then felt bad, and tried to help with getting professional support for her. Also stupidly told her not to worry about rushing to leave (I was just so worried about her committing suicide)

fast forward she’s on medication now and seems mentally so much better, but still isn’t working, claims to be job searching but no luck.
DH is so fed up with her, and wants me to kick her out. I totally get DH anger, and I’m so upset she’s putting us in this situation but I’m so scared to ask her to sort her crap out that she will have another breakdown.

To note, there are no other family members/friends she can stay with.

what do I do????

OP she will know this can't go on forever. I'd sit down with her and say that, that it can't go on forever, we need to make a plan for you to move on, be independent and happy.

Work out with her which first steps she can take and work with her if you have time. I think if your DH is inclined see if he will also help, if you are all working together and she feels supported it's not going to be so hard. She will hopefully be grateful longer term.

All these people saying kick her out have no idea what it's like having a sibling with poor mental health. It's really hard.

Im sorry it’s sad that she has mental health issues but suspicious that when you mention leaving that she deteriorates and talks about taking her life. It could be she panicked and it made her spiral but sound manipulative. You have a young child and need to focus on them and your DH. She has to go and sadly it’s not your responsibility. It’s definitely easier said than done because I can imagine if she takes unwell again or comes to harm you will feel guilty. However she is and adult and needs to deal with her own life and let you all get on with yours. I love my brother dearly but I don’t think I could manage him staying that long with me.

Don’t let her ruin your life as well as her own. Give her a short notice period 1-2 months and absolutely stick to it. Don’t let her threaten you with suicide. If she ever (god forbid) actually went through with that it would all be on her, not you

Yes the kick her out/issue a deadline approach is easy when you're not the one who has to do it. It's well-intentioned advice and good in theory.

I think this needs a frank discussion regarding her expectations versus your family's needs. Has she considered the imposition on your husband at all?

Tell her to go and be mentally ill somewhere else.

Not a comparable situation but we had my sibling live with us for a few months. He wasn't ill, just young and not sure what he was doing with his life and looking for a job in an expensive city. It made me feel a bit uncomfortable but DH used to sit down with sibling every few days and ask 'how is the job / flat search going? Can I help with that?' which was a supportive but firm way of reminding sibling that living with us was not a long term solution.

This ^ sounds sensible - you and hubby sit down for a chat with her, have a list of HMOs and flat-shares ready, and tell her you are giving her six weeks notice to be out after Xmas as it's not working for your family any longer having a guest. Make an appointment at the benefits office, maybe even go to that appointment with her. Then you and hubby keep checking up every few days. Should she end up in A&E that will be sad, but you'll just have to tell the staff she is homeless as she can't stay with you because her MH is affecting your family and you have a young child.

And no saying she can spend weekends with you after she moves out! Meet at neutral places - parks and cafes - until she's established back on her own again.

This is too much for you, an intrusion on your family. I know she can't help it but you have to put yours first. It would only work if you had a really big house and were not with her so much, sharing kitchen etc. She has made some progress getting medical help, medication, etc but needs encouragement to take the next step. Your sister is still quite young at 40. Did she have a career, is she trained for anything specific?

I think you need help and advice in order to help your sister. There must be organisations that offer that to those who have family with mental health problems.

If she is sick, under the care of a doctor or doctors, she is entitled to claim benefits so there is no need for her to be always asking for money.

Don't let her drag you down. I'm not surprised your husband is fed up.

Help your sister to take baby steps towards achieving independence, she will feel better for doing that but getting started takes effort. How did she fall into this state?

"Has she considered the imposition on your husband at all?"

To be fair, I don't think this young woman has considered or even gives a flying fuck about impositions on anyone. People with mental health issues are often surprisingly good at manipulation and self preservation. Sorry if that sounds cold but the best part of my own life has been dictated by a similar situation. OP, if you don't act now your DH will leave and you will become your sister's life long carer.

Depression is a selfish illness, it will do anything to 'survive'. While her behaviour when you ask her to leave is manipulative, it's not calculated. She cannot think straight while she is ill. But this is not an excuse.

You have done a lovely thing to support her when she's in need, but by continuing to be her crutch you're actually not helping her to get better. She has to do that for herself.
Just as she is putting herself first, you have to do the same for you and your family. Your husband and child should not have to live with this. Your child may be young now, but if you don't do something, at the very least she will grow up hearing her auntie threatening suicide and in and out of hospital. That isn't right, and the authorities may intervene one day, seeing as you aren't doing all you can to prevent her from being exposed to such things. Or maybe your DH will take DD and leave you and your Dsis to it. Wouldn't you think about it if it were him doing this?

Support your Dsis to present to the council as homeless.
Tell her and them you can't house her any longer (they will push you to). Make sure they know how extreme her behaviour is (suicide threats, repeated hospital visits) and that you have a young child. Basically you are going to have to be very strong and push her away in order to try to get her a home and the support she really needs. If/when she reacts badly to this, stand firm. Mental health services are so lacking that if they think a family member will take responsibility for her they'll put her in your care, then you're back to square one.

Good luck

This

I just think it's good to establish exactly where a person stands before considering a suitable course of action, particularly when someone is known or suspected to be manipulative.
So you ask the straightforward questions and note the response.
"What is it you expect from David?"

A performance in response will indicate that you're going to have to take a harder line.
A reasoned discussion in which she acknowledges the impact of her staying for so long on your husband is something you can build on together.

People with mental health issues are often surprisingly good at manipulation and self preservation

Absolutely this. I was in a similar situation and did the hard part of saying no from the off. Because I knew if I let them live with me, I'd end up in the same position that OP is in now.

Your sister doesn't want to leave, that's the bottom line. I agree with a pp, council are very unlikely to house her. So she isn't going to want to leave a nice family home to go into a grotty hmo.

Your DH has been very patient and it's time to put your own family first. It won't be easy and your sister won't be happy but there's no outcome that is going to please everyone. I wish I could give you a magic solution but there isn't one. You're just going to have to bite the bullet and be firm.

Oh, and don't pin anything on expecting her to get a job. Assume she won't. She may be looking, but even if she applies for jobs and gets as far as interviews and an offer , she is unlikely to last, firstly because she's ill, and secondly it would have the consequence of having to move out and stand on her own two feet.
That's how depression works in my experience.

Give her a realistic timeframe to leave (especially considering Christmas and new year are approaching when lots of things close down) - maybe 8 to 10 weeks.

However you need to do so sensitively and ensure you paint it as something that's very much in her best interests (which it is) and that you're not abandoning her.

Help her make a plan of what she needs to do to leave and re-establish her independence. So that'll be things like registering for social housing, applying for benefits, looking for jobs, making an appointment with Citizen's Advice about support, speaking to her GP about a 'fit note' around what she's capable of doing work wise and finding a room to rent.

After so long out of work and with mental health challenges she is unlikely to be able to enter full time work immediately. But even a part time job would be help her get back on track - perhaps alongside some volunteering.

You can be a supportive and caring sister without having her under your roof; that's not the only way of supporting a loved one.

Now that she's on a much more even keel then it's absolutely time that she takes steps to rebuild her life - and that first step is moving out.

Someone who is in A&E every night threatening to kill herself has no intention of doing so. Please don't let your sister manipulate you with this threat.

Sit her down. Get practical with her.

Get her registered on the council housing list. Then she can start bidding on properties, but alas she's currently adequately housed she'll be a low priority. So you then also need to write a letter addressed to her with 2 months notice (or whatever you want to give her) of eviction from your home for her to provide to the council as part of her application for a home.

Don't be manipulated by the claims of suicide - if she leaves the house and goes to A&E again with suicidal ideation, personally I would tell the hospital, mental health team and social services that she is no longer welcome in your home and let the council put her in emergency housing.

The alternative is to plonk her at the council offices first thing in the morning and say she is homeless and they will find an emergency option for her. She'll have to woman up a bit to get through this but you can support her in ways other than subsidising her and keeping her in your home.

Get her UC claim and PIP claim up and running if she doesn't already have it.

As harsh as it sounds, this is not your responsibility.
Your family is.

OP, this is extremely difficlt and I feel for you. Unfortunately however, while she may well have significant mental health issues, her behaviour is not acceptable. She appears unwilling or unable to make any sort of change. I also suspect she is not helping aroudn the house, supporting you etc. The reality is that this is very manipulative behaviour, even if she is not doing it consciously. To be quite frank, it's very much in line with covert narcissism - not that she is one necessarily, but these are quite classic behavoiurs of a vulnerable or covert narcissist. The sad thing about people like this is that they do not think like you or I and therefore they honestly do not understand that their behaviour is the problem. It is always someone else's fault. They are perpetually the victim, which, combined with secret weird grandiose fantasies (in this sort of situation it plays out in ways like for example applying for a single job that sounds great. Maybe even getting an interview. In their head, this job is going to solve all their problems, it's a huge step up the career ladder, they're going to have more money, more prestige, more opportunities. They are so busy focusing on how this new job will change their lives they immediately stop doing anything else to solve their problems. So when it all falls through, which it inevitably does, it sends them back into a spiral. It can almost look like someone is bi polar - the highs and the lows, even though they're all completely false). Just a guess, but has she alienated friends/past partners etc too?

Unfortunately, you are going to have to get tough. I agree with PP - you need to give her a very firm deadline and boundary. She needs a job and to move out by xx. I'd look into whatever support your local council may offer. I assume you're already heping her to claim as many benefits as she is eligible for.

But you may have to accept that if you do this, things may well get worse for her. If you're lucky, that will be the impetus she needs to make things better. But it may not.

Yes, was hoping someone would post this - talk to your DS to explain that this is the only way to get her housed and on the list, but that she clearly needs support - housing, therapy, back to work support, PIP/UCs etc and these will not be forthcoming if she has a safehaven in your home. I think it is fair to state that as much as you love and support her, you need to place a priority on the MH and wellbeing of yourself and your DH, that your marriage and family life cannot sustain her remaining indefinitely.

I’m afraid that if she ends up in A&E, then you hold the line - and you make clear to the attending physicians that they need to contact social services etc and get her support and housing. They can make many of the referrals you need or add to them if you’ve already started the process with the help of CAB.

I believe that you're well within your rights to ask her to leave, of course your are. You are entitled to have your private home the way you like with the people you like.

That said, I also believe it's reasonable for a very unwell person such as your sister to ask and receive support like that you have provided.

It isn't a case of right and wrong, it's about making a decision that's best for you, in difficult circumstances.

Recovery from mental illness is rarely straightforward. The very nature of it means that all parties will likely experience high levels of distress.

Your sister may or may not take her own life. You cannot change that. You have expressed your concern and lo e for her, you have provided her with the support that you could - and that is enough. It isn't your responsibility to keep her alive. Sad as it is, you are both victims of a shockingly inadequate health service.

Try not to make this about rights or wringa. It would be terribly unfair for you to ascribe judgement to where your sister is at mentally. Focus instead on your own wellbeing and that if your family.

That's a very hard situation, but she needs to have a plan to live an independent life. I don't think just chucking her out is going to solve the issue long term.

Sit down with her and make a plan. Be sure she's applied for all the help she is entitled to, and that she's working towards that independent life. If you help her plan it, she may feel less overwhelmed. Set clear timelines, and clear 'steps' to independence. Right now you don't know if its fear, or manipulation that holding her back. But you need to be very clear that you've supported her for a year, and she needs to be moving out as this situation isn't supportable anymore.

OP, it's not clear if your sister is under managed care (GP or approved mental health professional) that would be an additional advantage for her to apply for ESA and support services.

https://www.mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org/en/welfare-benefits/am-i-eligible-for-employment-support-allowance-esa/how-to-claim-esa-for-mental-health/

www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance

Unfortunately, you are going to have to get tough with your sister, otherwise your DH will probably leave. It’s actually a fairly simple choice to make - your husband and child or your sister. You can’t have both.

It’s sad that she’s been so unwell and you’ve been very kind to her, but you need to ask her to leave. Ignore the manipulation (which will inevitably happen again). If she harms herself, it’s her choice to do so and you would not be to blame. As others have said, if she ends up in A&E you should refuse to have her home again. It’s very unfair to raise a child around someone who is so unstable when there’s a choice for that person to live elsewhere.

I really feel for you OP. Your sister is ill, but she's also using her illness to manipulate you. It's very manipulative to use mental health to hold other people to ransom. My sister does it by threatening suicide in order to extract money from our parents, the difference being that she's not depressed and I don't think there's the remotest chance of her actually going through with it. I assume you're largely supporting her in terms of her not having food, rent or bills to pay, plus she's probably enjoying the security of being 'looked after.' Are you from the same town? Could you help her secure a flat near you? She does need to stand on her own two feet or you'll end up stuck with her forever. My sister has done similar to me in the past - she still blames me now for 'abandoning' her when I moved out of our shared flat as I was paying for everything! That was over 20 years ago. Oh well!

You can't present to the council as homeless if you have somewhere to live - they will deem her as being housed, as she lives with her sister, and therefore she won't be a priority. Her sister actually needs to kick her out for her to be homeless.