to think the 'Ask for Angela' pub safety scheme is inherently flawed?

[Sethera]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c789nn3d918o

To be clear, I fully endorse the idea of a safety scheme, it's the methodology of this one I'm questioning.

The idea behind 'Ask for Angela' is that anyone feeling unsafe can discreetly ask for help in a pub, bar or similar - because saying 'is Angela in tonight' or similar sounds as though you are asking after a member of staff, and won't alert your date/companion to the fact you're seeking an escape route.

However, the effectiveness of the scheme depends on bar staff understanding this code, which, as the linked article suggests, more than half of them don't.

This suggests awareness of the code word needs to be increased - but, if it becomes so widely known that you can guarantee all bar staff will understand it, what is the point of having a code word at all? Bar staff are not a separate species; if it's universally recognisable to them, it's going to be universally recognisable to the people who are causing others to feel threatened enough to use it.

If the idea is that you get away from your threatening date to 'ask for Angela' at the bar, where you won't be overheard, why is there a need for a code at all? Why wouldn't people just ask for help?

It would be better to promote the idea that anyone can ask for help in a bar (or similar public place) and receive it - this would not then rely on other people understanding a code, or, indeed, the victim knowing there was a code they could use (if bar staff don't understand it then there's a high chance many victims won't know about it either).

I have always worried that the bad date would overhear and know what was going on. Our local NHS trust had posters on the back of toilet doors with tear off strips which looked completely innocent. If you put one in with a urine sample, handed it to the midwife/nurse/staff member or even left it somewhere visible when you were having a consultation, they would work out a way to speak privately. I wonder whether something similar would work in a pub?

Yeah, I’ve often thought it might lead to some very confused conversations around “We don’t have an Angela working here” or worse “yes, I’ll just go and get her!”.

Even if the staff recognise the phrase, are they actually going to have a clue what to do. What do they actually do?

Im sure there was a story in the news about a year ago about it went wrong once. I’ll see if I can find it.

However, despite all of what I’ve just written, I like it, it’s a well meaning safety net and probably has helped a fair few women get out of uncomfortable situations.

What are bar staff supposed to do when they hear the code? Call the police? Will the police come to the bar if they receive a call because a woman asked for Angela (with no other details)?

The idea is that they take the woman somewhere safe - in the article, where the scheme worked as it should, the woman was safely taken out of the pub and offered a taxi, or directed to another pub where she could ask for a friend of the barman's to look after her.

If it works, it's great, but the potential for it not to work is high as the article demonstrates. It can only be foolproof if it's universally recognised, and if it's universally recognised then there's no point in it being a coded message of help.

I was in a university bar and it had ‘Ask for Angela’ posters up on the walls. Fine, it gave info of what to do to the girls who needed it - but everyone else could read it too so not exactly discreet. I’d always assumed the posters were intended to be placed in the women’s loos where potential threats less likely to see them.

That's a good idea. Tear off strips could be put in the toilets of pubs, with a clear and unambiguous message 'help me' so even if the bar tender was a temp working their first ever job, there would be no room for misunderstanding. It would be easy to fold one and hand it over discreetly when paying for a drink.

I agree. Any code would need to be so well known that it doesn't really work as a code.

Better for women to just know they could ask bar staff for help. And for bar staff to have a list of suggested ways they can help.

I have had to run into shops on two separate occasions to get away from really dangerous behaviour from men. Both times the shops were bloody amazing. One scooped me into their back room and helped me leave that way. One locked their entrance doors and called the police.

Both were so incredibly quick to act and kind about it. I didn't need to say more than a couple of words and they acted immediately.

My DD worked in a city centre upscale bar place. They used the " Angel Shot" system - cant remember all the details but depending on whether you asked for salt on the rim or it to be lit or something they would either call an uber, take you to a safe staff area or call the police. The signs were up in the ladles toilet.
DD said it was used at least a couple of times a week. She had to call the police a couple of times.

I've always thought it was an odd scheme. As someone else said your likely to get the response 'this is Angelas night off' or 'no Angela works here'
Pubs are busy places, shouting that across the bar there's a chance your date will hear.

It's good that this worked on the occasions your DD was involved, but it sounds a bit complicated - if people can't remember 'Ask for Angela' are they going to remember something with several options like this?

And again, there is the potential for misunderstanding - if you are happily drinking your shot with salt on the rim which you asked for because you like it that way, and then the police turn up!

It also means a person called Angela can't really be employed in a pub anymore!

It's is concerning yes and as a pub Landlady I've taught staff what it is and what to do.

I actually think it should be included in staff training and when anyone goes for their alcohol licence. My pub company who I'm the tenant of gets us to do training at least twice a year and at the last one this was a big feature and it's importance. We were also taught about the thumb curled into the palm as a silent sign.

I have had someone use the Angela scheme. I already saw red flags when they were sat at a table. She popped over and said, hey, is Angela here babe? I said oh yes she said you were popping in she's just out the back, come with me.
We then called her a cab and she left discreetly via the kitchen door.

When the guy came over, DH said to him she got an urgent call so had left and made it seem like he was meant to have passed the message on. If the guy knew he didn't let on.

My concern over it has always been that no one actually knows whether any of the bar staff won’t take advantage or an already vulnerable woman!

When I first started working at a bar pre 16 we were told about the angel shot system on our first day.
literally if someone asked for an angel shot- radio security and they would escort her to where she wanted to go. Saying that I worked at a place that is very protective around women’s safety. It still is 15 years later.
it should be mandatory to train staff.

YANBU - I'd not seen this article but I think I had wondered in the past how thorough bars/pubs etc were in actually telling their staff what they are supposed to do.

It's a good idea, the posters should be in the ladies loos not up in the bars/pubs general areas and staff should be trained. I think most bar staff could tell if someone was in trouble and just keep them occupied until they could get help for them.

Other companies do something similar with free sanitary products. I can't remember what the name they use is but you can go to say Morrisons (or our local bus company) and ask for x and they'll give you a pack for free.

I suspect 90% of the occasions when someone asks for Angela it's a journalist testing the scheme out.

I thought that reading the article where the manager told her to go to another pub to see her male friend. Well-meaning but a vulnerable and maybe upset woman doesn’t want to be sent off to go and find some random man

But a lot of them public know the Angela thing so men and women so if someone was going to be creepy and listen in they would hear the person asking or other creeps may know wouldn't it be better if people can text a number or a friend for someone to call the pub or somewhere app or something

Or simply call the police?

I'm not in pubs often to be honest but was in one last week - a small, traditional bar without pool table and big screens, just a bar and seats. The bar was in the centre of the room with seating around. There were prominent "ask for Angela" signs on the bar and I thought the same thing.

I like the idea of the hospital tear off strips to alert a medical professional. When I was pregnant with my first over 20 years ago they had posters on the backs of the doors in the ladies loos about domestic violence and telling the nurse/doctor/midwife but no mechanism for actually doing that.

I think it's great in principle.

But it has a catch 22 issue.

For the bar staff and the people need it to be aware to use it, it has to be widely publicised so most people know it.
If it's widely publicised, then the perpetrators will know it too.

If the perpetrators know it too, then there's not much point having a code that keeps it secret.

The advantage, I think, is it allows a very quick phrase to express help.

However I know all about it, but I suspect if I was working, very busy, and someone came up and asked if Angela was there, I wouldn't immediately click - unless it was a regular thing, which I don't expect it is. It would be different if I'd already spotted red flags, I think.
I don't work in a bar though, so maybe it would be much more emphasised there.

The presence of posters like this in women's toilets is such a good idea. If a woman is accompanied by an abuser she can see how to get help, without alerting him. One reason I don't like men being in women's loos is that they used to be a place of refuge for a woman, with no man allowed to follow her in.

It’s a good idea. It’s worked for people I know. It’s better to have it than not have it. More training is needed. Women should give feedback that they want it.

I am probably wrong but I always took it as a reminder that you can ask for help, not necessarily just “ask for Angela” it’s not a secret thing that men shouldn’t know about, just a gentle nudge that we don’t have to suffer in silence, out of some awkward in built politeness that we have drilled into us at an early age!

That scheme sounds quite complicated, with multiple options for customers / staff to remember and understand