to think the 'Ask for Angela' pub safety scheme is inherently flawed?

[Sethera]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c789nn3d918o

To be clear, I fully endorse the idea of a safety scheme, it's the methodology of this one I'm questioning.

The idea behind 'Ask for Angela' is that anyone feeling unsafe can discreetly ask for help in a pub, bar or similar - because saying 'is Angela in tonight' or similar sounds as though you are asking after a member of staff, and won't alert your date/companion to the fact you're seeking an escape route.

However, the effectiveness of the scheme depends on bar staff understanding this code, which, as the linked article suggests, more than half of them don't.

This suggests awareness of the code word needs to be increased - but, if it becomes so widely known that you can guarantee all bar staff will understand it, what is the point of having a code word at all? Bar staff are not a separate species; if it's universally recognisable to them, it's going to be universally recognisable to the people who are causing others to feel threatened enough to use it.

If the idea is that you get away from your threatening date to 'ask for Angela' at the bar, where you won't be overheard, why is there a need for a code at all? Why wouldn't people just ask for help?

It would be better to promote the idea that anyone can ask for help in a bar (or similar public place) and receive it - this would not then rely on other people understanding a code, or, indeed, the victim knowing there was a code they could use (if bar staff don't understand it then there's a high chance many victims won't know about it either).

A woman may be feeling uneasy about a man she’s met for a blind date or not liking the way a customer is looking at her and just need to stay at the bar chatting for a moment while she calls a taxi. An escort out to the taxi might also be welcome. That’s the kind of thing the scheme can help with. If she knows she’s in serious danger she can ask to call the police.

I also think ordering an “angel shot with lime” as code for “call the police” is performative nonsense. The police aren’t coming out with blue lights because someone has indicated that they don’t feel safe with their date, especially if the bar staff are unable to say why.

All of us, even us ancient ones here, started out working at a very low rate. £2.50 an hour picking strawberries in 1980 was my first wage. I didn't put in minimum effort. I'm horrified at this 'You're on your own, love, because I'm only on NMW' shite. Young people are better than this, surely?

I'm not sure - it’s still a good idea, I just think it’s something people don’t think about. It links back to the bar/bar staff responsibility as well. Any scheme like this will be difficult and it is better than nothing but really you’ve outlined the crux of the societal issue. Women generally have to be on guard with everyone! Yes it’s a small chance but it’s always there!

The rest of the workforce isn't, given that poorly paid, inflexible jobs with responsibility such as care and TA work are so hard to fill. So I don't see why young workers would be any different, especially not in a sector that already has a recruitment problem.

@Pluvia "But above all, it relies on the nerve of the woman to expose her situation and lose her dignity by asking for help in public, in a place where others can hear the conversation. At least asking for Angela doesn't reveal to any other potential predators that she's in trouble."
But this is exactly the issue I have with the scheme: it reinforces the idea that it's undignified for a woman to be the vitim of sexual assault - groping, threatening comments, whatever. And that she should be the one to vacate the public sphere, as unobtrusively as possible, and never doing anything as shameful as naming what it is the perpertrator has done to her.
@DaisysChains put it perfectly:
"the emphasis has to be (imo) on making abusers uncomfortable in public spaces, make it normal for the general public to notice abusive behaviour and police it societally - half the time it is done in plain sight as abusers know it is currently more or less expected by everyone
scatter several posters about with reminders to not to abuse, sexually assault or rape anyone - one above every urinal and in every stall of every toilet males have access to
and some about the public part of the bars (with “we’re watching you, you fucking pervert” maybe?)
we need to put the onus back onto behavioural change of abusers and stop expecting everyone else to have to live like fugitives with code words and safe zones and the like"

This just isn't true.
Social workers and healthcare workers who are involved with things like the red dot program described upthread need support from their employers to deal with vicarious trauma and burnout.
It's really not responsible, as a society, to create an expectation that hospitality workers are well placed to help women getting away from violent men.

meet in a group? have you ever been on a date?

Firstly most people would find it very weird if you said 'Yes I'd love to meet up, I'll bring two of my friends and you bring two of yours, none of whom know each other.' Secondly why would two of my friends (married, with kids, working, busy jobs) WANT to spend several hours sitting awkwardly at a pub with random people they don't know, once or twice a week so their single friend can get to know someone? It's a big ask! Also assuming people live in the same vicinity as both the date and people they feel close enough to ask to accompany them, which today isn't that likely.

Besides which as a pp said, it might not be a random man, it could be a friend who gets weird or an existing partner. Perhaps he's taken her phone so she can't just 'call the police,' and, tbh, it's incredibly naïve to think the police will turn up with blues and twos to a non-emergency situation.

The responsibility isn't on the bar staff to keep someone safe, there is no intention for them to confront the man, just to help her exit the situation, for example, call a taxi for the woman.

I'd worry about bit about this too.
Once in my younger days I asked a bouncer for help to get a taxi to leave somewhere in a hurry. He gave me his number instead, then refused to let me back inside when I figured out what his game was. I had no choice but to take the risk of walking away on my own. Some men people will take advantage of any situation given the chance.

I've never understood it either, I would think that if the bloke you're with can hear you asking for Angela he'll either start asking questions about who Angela is or he'll know about the scheme and know you're trying to get away from him. And if he can't overhear you asking why do you need a code at all, just say that you need help as you think you're in danger. Would think it'd be much more sensible to have a standard procedure for bar staff to follow if they're asked for help, and posters saying that the bar is part of the scheme. Though of course a dangerous man would probably just not take his dates to bars that were part of the scheme...

The only Angela I ever knew was my mum

Yes, my maternity hospital had something similar- when you went into the toilet to do your urine sample there was a poster and a red pen to mark your sample with if you needed help.

It's an option that's there if someone chooses to use it. They will be aware of the potential pitfalls. Don't treat them like idiots

Go straight to bouncer? DS (uni student) told me that he had a girl randomly slap his bum in the club. He went to the bouncer. The staff found what happened on CCTV, located the girl and forced her to apologise.

They then kicked the girl (and her friends out).

Its full of flaws tbh. There's no mechanism for getting away from the crazy man anyway and staff wont let you hide anywhere. You may as well be honest and say you're with a pervy man not the Angela nonsense.

I think it’s depressing all these schemes are needed in the first place to keep women safe.

On the way to and from work today I realised how many posters there are on trains and at stations warning men passengers that catcalling, touching, intimidating staring etc on public transport is sexual harassment. It’s ridiculous that this is even a thing. Grown men adults need to be reminded not to behave like disgusting human beings. It just feels so pervasive.

A pub that I visit quite regularly has posters on the inside of the toilet cubicle doors about this . I must admit that I have wondered how effective it is,whether all the bar staff are briefed about it,and whether you'll get a blank look and 'There's no one called Angela working here' as a response.

Nobody’s given a reason yet why it can’t be made mandatory as a part of their licensing conditions apart from it’s not perfect or that a lot of bar staff aren’t currently trained in it.
The whole idea of making it mandatory is that if connnected to a venue’s licence to trade, then staff do have to be trained in Ask Angela.

You’ll be noticing more posters and campaigns at the moment as we approach International Prevention of Violence Against Women awareness day on 25 November. Marks the start of 16 days of activism.

White Ribbon is an organisation that focuses on changing mens behaviour. It’s quite evangelical, but a good approach and one that can be tailored to fit different organisations.

I was pleased to see the football pundits wearing white ribbons on the 25th last year, but overall needs to gain more traction still. Another area of my previous work in this area involved arranging informal talks in schools, colleges and workplaces to start conversations, raise awareness and get men/boys thinking and talking about their behaviour towards women. White Ribbon use “Never abuse, never ignore and never use violence against women and girls”. A very strong focus on the bystander effect and how men can recognise, model acceptable behaviour and influence friends/colleagues/sons etc.

This work reached into businesses, councils, housing organisations, betting shops, taxi firms, bin collection companies, casino, football clubs and other male dominated spaces, as well as those most likely to encounter vulnerable women, hence housing organisations, but also CAB and religious organisations.

Initiatives can feel gimmicky, and I just knew that London Mayor’s “maaaate” initiative launched last year wouldn’t catch on, or have intended reach. That said, in my view no one scheme has the reach or capacity to be all things to all people, and joined up approach definitely required to make a lasting difference.

Probably because that would involve making it law. And it's probably a thing that will date - in 20 years time Angela just won't be a thing - it would be like the current adult generation asking for Betty or Jean - it would sound completely out of place.

Also if you make it law, that also means statute on what the bar staff are meant to do with the information, call taxi, police, what?
What if your in a busy nosy pub and the person asking for Angela isn't picked up correctly? Does that put a liability on to the bar staff for not hearing correctly?

It could also make it open to abuse, ask for Angela and the bar is obliged to call a taxi - what if it's closing time - does the bar put you outside or do you get to wait in the warm pub?

The Wetherspoons in my town has posters about the Ask Angela thing in the doors of the women's loos. I do wonder if there is an equivalent in the mens, as men (straight or gay) could also be on a dodgy date and want a safe exit too.

I was in a pub one time, and a guy sat at the table with me and said he was in my town for work and after fun. I made polite goodbyes and went to the bar.... and the staff came over and said he was asking to buy me a drink. I said no, and they did tell him so. No Angela scheme at the time though, and ended up in 2 other places with this guy following me. I only managed to get away because the police picked me up (I was a high risk missing person at the time).

In the early days of seeing my DP, a guy came up to me in a club and asked if I "needed to speak to Angela".... there is an age gap between me and DP... and I was pretty offended at this guy suggesting I was in danger somehow, but I try to laugh about it now.

Yes, it's not immediately obvious what the point would be.

The big question is, as you say, whether it would be underpinned by any legal responsibilities. If no, it's just a hoop to jump through and no reason to think it would change anything much.

If yes, that's going to require resources that will have to come from somewhere. It's evidently not going to be the state. So it would fall to hospitality staff, who are already poorly paid and hard to recruit and retain. Like, what are they actually supposed to do if someone doesn't have taxi money, or none is available? Hang around? I'm sure that'll be incredibly popular, and not create more opportunities for predation in itself or anything.

OK how would the law work in detail?

Someone comes up to bar and asks for Angela, then what will the law say?

The more I follow this thread the more performative pointlessness the “Ask for Angela” thing feels.

It’s not like a film or TV drama or book. The vast majority of women in abusive relationships are not “locked up” and only allowed out to go to the pub whence they whisper “is Angela here” to the well trained and brave barmaid while their abusive husband is in the loo.

We should be talking to our daughters/neices/female colleagues about having their voice to let people around them know that a man (in whatever context) is making them feel uncomfortable and can they help. Not to be “polite” or accommodating because they are conditioned to not make a fuss.

We need to call this shit out loudly not hide behind mimsy code words and subterfuge.

@Tootingbec yes it seems pointless.
Like a passing phase. It's great in the initial theory but the more you think about it the more flawed it becomes.

It's one of those things, people will look back on in 20years and think WTF?