to think the 'Ask for Angela' pub safety scheme is inherently flawed?

[Sethera]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c789nn3d918o

To be clear, I fully endorse the idea of a safety scheme, it's the methodology of this one I'm questioning.

The idea behind 'Ask for Angela' is that anyone feeling unsafe can discreetly ask for help in a pub, bar or similar - because saying 'is Angela in tonight' or similar sounds as though you are asking after a member of staff, and won't alert your date/companion to the fact you're seeking an escape route.

However, the effectiveness of the scheme depends on bar staff understanding this code, which, as the linked article suggests, more than half of them don't.

This suggests awareness of the code word needs to be increased - but, if it becomes so widely known that you can guarantee all bar staff will understand it, what is the point of having a code word at all? Bar staff are not a separate species; if it's universally recognisable to them, it's going to be universally recognisable to the people who are causing others to feel threatened enough to use it.

If the idea is that you get away from your threatening date to 'ask for Angela' at the bar, where you won't be overheard, why is there a need for a code at all? Why wouldn't people just ask for help?

It would be better to promote the idea that anyone can ask for help in a bar (or similar public place) and receive it - this would not then rely on other people understanding a code, or, indeed, the victim knowing there was a code they could use (if bar staff don't understand it then there's a high chance many victims won't know about it either).

If you mean someone actually in the pub with you this may work but I would imagine not many men ( or women) are going to intimidate another person that much that they need discreet help infront of a friend.
Or do you mean text someone that's at home to come and get you ?
With the best will in the world not many people can drop everything to help a friend that is likely to be at least a couple of miles away in time to help.

I’ve always thought the “Ask for Angela” thing was a bit pointless.

Unless you are literally unable to speak freely/go to the loo and use your phone, why wouldn’t you just find a member of staff and tell them you are feeling uncomfortable with the man you are sitting with and can they help you.

Surely all the “Is Angela around?” marlarky is more likely to draw attention to you as some 18 year old behind the bar stares blankly at you!

I think it infantilises women and is not far off from telling them to “not make a fuss” and speak in code rather than just feeling free to assert ourselves that “this man is making me feel uncomfortable and I need help”

Much of the harassment women (esp younger women) face is that awful low level leering, staring, unwanted dick pics etc etc. It is not normally (thank God) being held captive by a strange man in a pub like some sort of ITV drama, requiring speaking in code!!

I don't think anyone would claim Ask for Angela is foolproof or any sort of ultimate solution but it's more effective than doing nothing or trying to get a new "ask for help, but coded" scheme off the ground. (Spoiler, there isn't a foolproof way for women to ask for coded help in bars and pubs.) Important not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Or the abuser being out of earshot. Which could easily happen.

There shouldn’t be room for misunderstanding because there’s no such thing as an ‘angel shot’, so as long as the bar staff are properly trained, they’ll know. And if the various messages are listed in the ladies loo, it’s easy for someone in trouble to be specific about the help they need - it’s not like they have to memorise all the different iterations. And that’s where the information should be - as people have said, it’s nonsensical to have the ‘code’ advertised around the whole bar so predators are fully aware of it and women may be put off using it. Smacks of virtue signalling rather than being of any practical use to women being harassed.

But I agree with your central point, in that it seems easier all round to discreetly ask a staff member for help rather than talking in code.

Wouldn't it better if you are going to meet strange men in pubs to meet in a group, the staff can only do so much though

If people want to cry victim blaming feel free and yes women can have issues with known partners but then again call the police

Keeping someone safe should not be anyone else's sole responsibility we should be encouraging everyone to make the best safety choices themselves and respect ourselves first

So how about you offer a solution to the problem, instead of focussing so heavily on why existing schemes won't always work? What would work 100% of the time?

Picking holes is easy. Finding solutions is the difficult bit.

I've seen the Ask for Angela posters up for years in women's loos at bars and pubs/gastro pubs. I had been wondering only quite recently whether it works and if anyone has ever used it successfully. This article answers my question. Very disappointing to find out that half the time it doesn't work. Hopefully this article will bring about some change, and if the scheme needs to evolve to be more effective then this might prompt it.

As for your (male) date knowing about it, I don't think it's as widely promoted in men's toilets so even if they heard you ask, it's very unlikely they'd have known what was happening. DH saw a poster in a pub a couple months back and it was the first time he'd ever seen one. He was telling me all about it and I said I've been reading that poster in the loos for years!

You sound a bit naive. It's not "strange men". It could be any man, a boyfriend or another customer.

So do lone women usually drink in pubs without knowing anyone there?, if I was in a pub for example I would be with my husband of friends/other family if I had an issue I would speak to my husband or a friend/other family first to help me before the bar staff

So I am not sure how many women would need to use 'ask for angela' unless they were meeting someone alone?

Sure I could be naive that there is lots of women alone in pubs just sat drinking by themselves

My proposed solution was in my OP:

it would be better to promote the idea that anyone can ask for help in a bar (or similar public place) and receive it - this would not then rely on other people understanding a code, or, indeed, the victim knowing there was a code they could use (if bar staff don't understand it then there's a high chance many victims won't know about it either).

I think the most important thing is, no matter how a person signals that they needs help (e.g. a woman could just tell a member of staff they are in difficulty) the key thing is making sure every establishment has a simple procedure to follow that all the staff are trained on. Because even if the bar staff knew what you were saying if you asked of Angela/angel shot/whatever, none of that is of any use if the staff member doesn't know what they should do about it.

I imagine online dating is a risk.

When I've been hassled by men in bars or clubs in my younger days it was never because I was meeting strange men. I've had security and bar staff step in (at nearly 50 I'm probably ugly enough and big enough to look after myself these days), I've also gone to them when someone groped me in a club(he put his hand up my skirt as I walked past him, I had not said a word to him or seen him before but he felt he had the right to put his hand up my skirt),

I used to go out in a large group, was well known on the scene, knew bar staff, security, promoters, knew how to look after myself. Many young women don't or they get separated.

So a woman in a pub with her controlling and abusive partner and will suddenly decide to ask bar staff to help her do what? Call the police? Walk her to a bus stop? Call her a cab? This happens?

I must admit I would feel extremely uncomfortable asking for a code name, if it wasn't recognised or drew more attention to my situation. Part of staff training should be about watching the crowd looking for angry people, scared people, shifty people and keeping an eye on them. Being prepared.

I work in customer service and we have ask for Jackie for people needing sanitary products. No one has ever asked for Jackie we leave them out so people can help themselves

The idea of trying to make the code more “secret” from men is a bit silly. Even if it was just in women’s toilets do people expect there to be a line on the posters that says “please don’t tell any men about this scheme”? People talk!

I can’t think of many scenarios where I’d feel in enough danger that I couldn’t just leave by myself but safe enough I could go up to the bar in public and ask a coded question and leave discretely with less danger. on the other hand the scheme probably is helpful in a handful of scenarios and it’s totally free apart from the posters so I think it’s harmless to have.

I’ve previously been involved with developing Ask For Angela into other areas beyond pubs. ‘Angela’ was identified as suitable because it has 3 syllables and the worker being approached more likely to understand if they only catch the last two syllables. As opposed to ‘help’ which has only one syllable and then prompts the question “help with what”.

It isn’t actually intended to be kept secret from men. Posters have a dual purpose - to empower women to seek help, and to warn men that women they are with have a safe support if feel uncomfortable by men’s behaviour.

The public nature of the posters and initiative is also intended to galvanise bystanders to react if they witness a woman in an uncomfortable situation. Also for pub workers to potentially approach a woman and work Angela into a conversation. It’s intended to be subtle yet powerful. So a guy behaving inappropriately also understands that the unwarranted behaviour has been observed and he can be removed from the situation. That bit is important, because removing the women to a place of safety is great, but potentially leaves the creep to move on to someone else… who then needs to ask for Angela.

Part of my work in my team included checking licences for AforA, also checking induction plans of businesses to make sure that was covered at the earliest stage of recruitment. Also delivered the training for many organisations and provided posters, stickers for windows etc. The electronic rolling advertising things in the town centre were also set to include the AforA messaging to coincide with the nighttime economy. Do lots of moving parts that worked when synced together.

But this is very area specific and had the funding, drive and commitment to this as part of the previous government’s Prevention of Violence against Women and Girls Strategy. Goodness only knows if or how it’s going, as I and two others have left the team and moved on.

Yup, always thought it’s pointless. They put the signs up in both them men’s and women’s toilets anyway, so everyone knows about it, including your date 🤣 Either way, you’d need to get away from your date to have the conversation so he couldn’t understand, so may as well just be straight up and say you need a taxi or out the back door etc.

Just someone trying to sound clever with their dumb idea.

In all this research how many on the ground bar staff (not management) were consulted?

I also have been helped to access support when with an abusive man but by staff noticing my distress and discreetly getting information to me

I am unsurprised with high turnover of staff, ages of staff, and general lack of care for women that Ask for Angela is not working as intended

women’s toilets can’t really be considered to be safe single sex spaces anymore as so many let males in

I would much rather see prominent posters all over pubs and public spaces aimed at abusers saying that abuse will not be tolerated - like the ones in hospitals for NHS staff

pub & club staff could then have training to keep an eye and ear out for abusive behaviour and language

am sure I’ve seen posters listing abusive behaviour and saying it’s abusive but possibly only aimed at ‘women not putting up with it’ rather than ‘anyone doing it gets chucked out/police called’

the emphasis has to be (imo) on making abusers uncomfortable in public spaces, make it normal for the general public to notice abusive behaviour and police it societally - half the time it is done in plain sight as abusers know it is currently more or less expected by everyone

scatter several posters about with reminders to not to abuse, sexually assault or rape anyone - one above every urinal and in every stall of every toilet males have access to

and some about the public part of the bars (with “we’re watching you, you fucking pervert” maybe?)

we need to put the onus back onto behavioural change of abusers and stop expecting everyone else to have to live like fugitives with code words and safe zones and the like