to think the 'Ask for Angela' pub safety scheme is inherently flawed?

[Sethera]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c789nn3d918o

To be clear, I fully endorse the idea of a safety scheme, it's the methodology of this one I'm questioning.

The idea behind 'Ask for Angela' is that anyone feeling unsafe can discreetly ask for help in a pub, bar or similar - because saying 'is Angela in tonight' or similar sounds as though you are asking after a member of staff, and won't alert your date/companion to the fact you're seeking an escape route.

However, the effectiveness of the scheme depends on bar staff understanding this code, which, as the linked article suggests, more than half of them don't.

This suggests awareness of the code word needs to be increased - but, if it becomes so widely known that you can guarantee all bar staff will understand it, what is the point of having a code word at all? Bar staff are not a separate species; if it's universally recognisable to them, it's going to be universally recognisable to the people who are causing others to feel threatened enough to use it.

If the idea is that you get away from your threatening date to 'ask for Angela' at the bar, where you won't be overheard, why is there a need for a code at all? Why wouldn't people just ask for help?

It would be better to promote the idea that anyone can ask for help in a bar (or similar public place) and receive it - this would not then rely on other people understanding a code, or, indeed, the victim knowing there was a code they could use (if bar staff don't understand it then there's a high chance many victims won't know about it either).

See my post re. asking a bouncer for help

I’m not a lawyer but licnensing authorities could write in to the conditions to the effect that licensed premises have a duty of safeguarding when customers say they need help.
There’s some really wierd responses to this idea on here. Almost like people don’t want there to be any system to help women (and men, they can ask for Angela too) who are unsafe in licensed premises.

I think it's more that some of us are sceptical about how this would actually work, not least because there are plenty of predators working in hospitality too. Especially as nobody has explained how this safeguarding duty would work. We all know the police aren't going to turn up on request and sort it out.

Some of you seem to think the magic minimum wage workers will step in and fix everything.

Woman asks for help after last orders. So 11.55, kicking out time is 12.00. Taxi is called but 30-40min wait.
The landlord needs people out to comply with the licensing laws.
What takes precedence, the doors closing or the woman?
If you say the woman, Who's paying for the staff to wait with the woman?

How do you stop Angela being abused so people can wait indoors for taxi?

If you have young staff they might also be reliant on public transport or parents collecting them. You can't put the staff at risk either.
It needs to be a help if you can but not a responsibility.

Magic minimum wage fairies will fix it.

To be honest I always thought they'd fetch/take you through to the most senior person in the pub rather than the 18 year old on her first Saturday night shift having to personally deal with it.

That's it exactly putting it on to people who are potentially vulnerable themselves.

Maybe the advice should be if your meeting an OLD for the first time meet in a coffee shop mid afternoon rather than a pub. So you can keep your wits about you, and you can make your escape without having to rely on young people behind a bar digging you out a hole.

Looking up the history of this it was a woman Angela who was killed by her husband. So it wasn't even a new date situation that she was caught up in.

Yes it's nice in theory if you are in trouble ask for help go to the pub staff, a bit like what you'd tell your kids, if you get lost go to the staff, they will help.
But it's certainly not something that can be put onto someone as a legal obligation.

Even the most senior person, what are they meant to do, without putting themselves at risk?

And round and round we go 🎠🎠🎠

how much easier it would all be if male abusers were held to account and given appropriately stiff sentences

we could leave bar staff to staffing the bar, managers to managing them, bouncers to, erm, bounce

women wouldn’t have to watch themselves, their food & drink or their clothes, or their manners, or their way of being - they could just ‘be’

gun owning was successfully restricted post-Dunblane

drink-driving had a very concerted govt campaign to make it socially unacceptable alongside notable legal consequences

ditto wearing seatbelts, transporting loads of passengers or carrying kids in boots (of cars not the chemists)

even smoking has been successfully banned in most public spaces with initial high costs (price) and even legal consequences (eg in planes)

one has to wonder why MVAWG is always the poor relation

why are law makers, law enforcers, judges and probation so blasé about males abusing women and children 🤔

almost like they want a wee get-out-of-jail-free-card themselves in their back pocket, you know, just in case they fancy a bit of light abuse, coercion, or other behaviours they know would cross the line…

safer to keep the line a bit blurred and the consequences a bit low, eh lads 😉

maybe that’s why some women are so keen on twisting us all in knots too? don’t want their da, uncle, bro, DH, or son getting hassle from some woman/girl who is a <insert any insult commonly seen about other females that marks the insulter out as cool, savvy, streetsmart, or possessing extra good morals compared to insultee>

it’s incredibly sad all round (and round and round)

This seems to me like a well-intentioned but ill thought-through idea. Common among those who have never experienced the problem but feel qualified to suggest a solution.

It reminds me of the song lyric "walk a mile in my shoes".

It would help if the posters about it were not put in male toilets. Surely they should be in the female toilets only.

I have no idea if it works, but as someone who is actually called Angela, it really annoys me that they chose my name! Don't love having it associated with needing to escape abuse.

The scheme seems a bit silly to me. In the gents as well as the ladies there are 'Ask Angela' posters as well as 'Say no to sexual violence' ones. Every man using the WC will thus be aware of the code. [Plus the BDSM afficianados might feel discriminated against by the 'Say no to...' because their preference is to say a 'yes' to a simulacrum of ,it albeit in a controlled manner with clear parameters]. If a man or a woman has a date that seems like a weirdo that they feel might be trouble latter on they don't need a daft password, just assistance from staff and somewhere to go to be away from the strange dater. Having been on a number of dates in pubs and bars most have been OK regardless of the outcome, but on one occasion the person became decidedly freaky [after starting off as pleasant], so off to 'powder my nose' while he bellies up to the bar to buy another round. By the time he came back I was long gone having left the pub. If it is not possible to leave without the date then of course ask the bar staff for help or call the police yourself and hope they manage to do something to assist. I suspect that having printed a load of posters, leaflets, &c, the authorities feel that that is enough to address the problem of dates that become frightening for one of the parties involved. Last resort: if the other party insists on pressing for sexua favours: don't be discrete, shout a resolute 'No, leave me alone.' Most like this will embarrass most pests into desisting and might catch the attention of other patrons who may intervene to protect you.

I used to work for a well known chain of pubs and we had the Ask For Angela posters up in the ladies loo and back of house so (hopefully)the staff and any women who felt unsafe knew exactly what it was for. I always worked morning or lunchtimes so didn't experience any women asking but I'm sure the evening and weekenders did. I do agree that all pubs etc should regularly chat with all staff and make sure they are aware.

Women can also go into a pharmacy and ask for Ani. It means something like I need assistance now. Pharmacy staff have safeguarding responsibilities anyway, and should report certain incidents to social services - like a 12 year old asking for the morning after pill. Is it possible this girl is being subjected to CSA?

I've read a Reddit thread where the bar manager or most senior female says she will meet the person in the toilets, or the male/female manager takes them into the office to find out what they need. We're talking about using this for someone giving off creepy vibes, not someone swinging fists because of course you'd call the police. How much risk are we talking about here?

Evidently enough that the poster upthread that had been involved with the scheme said there were staff who said they'd feel vulnerable themselves.

Where I live the posters are only up in the ladies loos and have been for a good few years. Staff are provided training on what to do if someone does ask for Angela. I actually recently asked male friends if they knew about it and only ones who’ve done bar work knew. The others were all really surprised by it.

That's all fine in theory, if a big place with plenty staff.
But in practice if it's the end of the night, and someone says they need help what are staff meant to do?
Put themselves at risk of missing the last bus?

You also have to consider smaller venues maybe only have 2 or 3 staff on.
One gets distracted by a need Angela leaves the other open to abuse by the partner - who might actually be acting as a duo - one distract one attack.

It's really not on to put this onto pubs as a mandatory thing. It needs to be a help if you can not a mandatory you MUST help.

Yes, you've said.

What was actually said was:

"Staff in some felt that they would feel too vulnerable themselves if tasked with the responsibility of handling a situation in taking a woman into a private area (that was typically out of public view). So instead of doing that, they stayed with the person asking for Angela and called for help with the till, which itself was a code word to alert colleagues. A female colleague would then approach and chat with the one Asking for Angela and manage the situation in public from there."

Presumably the staff member responding to the till alert was either more senior or more confident.

I've worked in retail. I once had a faulty laptop thrown at my head. There's always a risk of encountering a dickhead when working in premises where the general public can freely enter, and in this case there's alcohol involved too.

The direct quote you use here confirms what I said, so the use of 'actually' was odd. There were staff who said they'd feel vulnerable themselves. That means the same as 'Staff in some felt that they would feel too vulnerable themselves'.

And it's an important point, given that it wasn't going to be theoretical for the people involved. Presumably those staff were very well aware both that there's always the risk of dickheads and there's alcohol involved, hence some of them felt vulnerable. The existence of other staff who might feel ok with it (and there is no guarantee of one always being on) doesn't cancel that out.

I see what you mean, but the fact that some people will be on minimum wage is irrelevant.Your ability and willingness to help shouldn’t be based on how much you earn

It's hardly a secret code if every bar staff member knows it.

It's not an effective secret code if not every staff member knows it.

It's dumb as shit.

You are much better just saying, please can you help me I think I'm at risk. Because ultimately your date will probably know who Angela is anyway so if you ask for Angela and they know and hear you are in danger anyway!

It's STUPID. It over complicates a simple issue, leading to potential miscommunications anyway.

Wasnt nigella Lawson assaulted by her husband Charles saatchi in the middle of the morning?

So a coffee shop is no safer than a pub, a tesco, subway, McDonald's etc. Its not where you are, its who you are with.

Thats my point, if you don't really know the person first date etc A coffee shop at least doesn't add alcohol into the mix and they are normally brighter than a pub.

If your in a domestic abuse situation rather than a date you can escape from you need to do a bit more than ask the 18yo behind the bar to call you a taxi