to think the 'Ask for Angela' pub safety scheme is inherently flawed?

[Sethera]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c789nn3d918o

To be clear, I fully endorse the idea of a safety scheme, it's the methodology of this one I'm questioning.

The idea behind 'Ask for Angela' is that anyone feeling unsafe can discreetly ask for help in a pub, bar or similar - because saying 'is Angela in tonight' or similar sounds as though you are asking after a member of staff, and won't alert your date/companion to the fact you're seeking an escape route.

However, the effectiveness of the scheme depends on bar staff understanding this code, which, as the linked article suggests, more than half of them don't.

This suggests awareness of the code word needs to be increased - but, if it becomes so widely known that you can guarantee all bar staff will understand it, what is the point of having a code word at all? Bar staff are not a separate species; if it's universally recognisable to them, it's going to be universally recognisable to the people who are causing others to feel threatened enough to use it.

If the idea is that you get away from your threatening date to 'ask for Angela' at the bar, where you won't be overheard, why is there a need for a code at all? Why wouldn't people just ask for help?

It would be better to promote the idea that anyone can ask for help in a bar (or similar public place) and receive it - this would not then rely on other people understanding a code, or, indeed, the victim knowing there was a code they could use (if bar staff don't understand it then there's a high chance many victims won't know about it either).

But this can already happen, and does (see a PP who asked for help in a shop, no code words, and received it). The existence of Ask for Angela doesn't mean that if a woman asks for help directly, she'll be turned away for not using the right code. The main problem of asking bar staff for help, coded or not, is that an 18-year-old on minimum wage may not be best equipped to help. But again, that shouldn't mean people should be discouraged from asking for help in whichever manner they feel comfortable.

Personally I've always wondered what specific situation would make me feel in enough danger that I couldn't leave by myself and had to ask for help via a code, but it obviously does happen.

My male friend said they put these posters in the male toilets too, of a pub he was in.

I don't understand all the people saying "would the bar staff even know what you meant?"

The posters don't magically appear on the walls, they're deliberately out there by the bar. Bars that put them up will be training their staff on the scheme.

You can doubt whether it's actually practical or safe in reality, but it's stupid to question whether staff in a bar promoting a specific scheme won't have been trained in the scheme. It's like saying "there's a poster on the wall about 2 glasses of wine for £5, but do the bar staff actually know anything about it?"

I read the article and when the scheme works, it works well. It was heartening to see staff go that extra mile to make sure the woman was safe and the predator dealt with. Other venue's staff's apparent ignorance of a scheme that is so important is really disappointing. The "Ask for Angela" posters should only be up in women's only areas. As the scheme gets more well known, the predatory males will also get to know the code, so I think the next step should be a code phrase exclusive to that venue, shown only on the inside of the toilet stall door in the ladies loo, so it is likely only women will ever see it.

Many public places only have mixed sex loos now, so the info on the back of the door is no help.

I would hope that bar staff are allowed to refuse to get involved with this. It is far too much responsibility for a NMW job.

It's a great idea in theory; but they really needed to choose a much less common name!

They get auto dropped by HO. They get put up.
There's not nearly as much training as being made out here.

The article covers this point - of 25 bar staff approached in pubs, only half understand 'ask for Angela' - and those not understanding were not all in tiny back street dive bars, they included large pub chains such as Wetherspoons and Greene King.

It's a load of cobblers.

I worked with a number of different organisations to help develop an approach that fit for them, so staff consultation was a crucial aspect of that. Staff in some felt that they would feel too vulnerable themselves if tasked with the responsibility of handling a situation in taking a woman into a private area (that was typically out of public view). So instead of doing that, they stayed with the person asking for Angela and called for help with the till, which itself was a code word to alert colleagues. A female colleague would then approach and chat with the one Asking for Angela and manage the situation in public from there.

Never a one-size-fits all, but what was important was that there was help available and workers knew what to do if the situation arose.

a minimum wage, often young employee isn't responsible of rthe personal safety of others.

This is the thing. And what if it puts them at risk too?
The most you can reasonably expect staff to do is to call the police in a situation where someone is in danger but the police are not going to respond immediately every time anyway. Even security guards in a pub can only throw people out, they’re not responsible for what they do once they’ve left.
It probably works best as a deterrent. But then it only reminds anyone who is a potential threat not to be overly potentially threatening in the pub/ nightclub.
A campaign that tells women what they can do to try to keep themselves safe would be better. There are too many flaws with this and there isn’t a way to make it work.

i worked in a pub for nearly 7 years, ask angela posters all over the place but were we told what to do if someone came to us and said it? were we fuck

im lucky no one ever said it to me or my colleagues cause we probably would have been a bit flustered and know for a fact it would have gone tits up

So they're a staff member down for who knows how long, how many times a day?

I know more staff against the scheme then for it.
In fact, the ratio is 1. Against it, 2. Indifferent.

The point is that an Angel Shot is not a real drink, so you couldn't actually be served one.

I’ve always found this so weird. Why would you be theoretically on a 121 date but then be asking at the bar for, what, a friend you suddenly decide you need to catch up with half way through?

I like the idea that there is an appreciation of male violence/intimidation, that it’s clear it isn’t acceptable and you are in a protected environment but the practicalities are off. Perhaps if there were small tokens in the ladies toilets you could slip to bar staff, although no doubt those would be messed around with by drunk people. Or a phone in the toilets. There’s got to be a better way.

Part of staff training should be about watching the crowd looking for angry people, scared people, shifty people and keeping an eye on them. Being prepared.

NMW bar staff? Good luck with that on a busy Fri/Sat night. You can’t expect surveillance duties from staff who are dealing with a packed bar area full of customers all vying for their attention. Maybe pubs/bars should employ a specially trained staff member at busy times, who can keep a lookout for threatening or vulnerable people while they’re clearing glasses, wiping tables etc. They could wear a badge saying ‘Here to Help’ to let people know. Probably cost too much, though. That’s always the bottom line with the training and extra personnel that would facilitate such schemes.

Almost every single organisation had a long list of resistance and the initiative initially trialled for a fixed period. Part of the job meant collecting data on actual interventions - frequency, days of week, time of day, and duration that was fed back to participating organisations.

Very low number of actual interventions that required police, removal (of either person). User experience also captured and companies were surprised by feedback from women and men about the effect of the posters, engagement etc as a result of the initiative. I definitely support such approaches, but I was involved because it was part of my job at that time, which is pretty much how many of the workers took it. Did the training as part of their job, but important to keep in perspective as very few actual situations arose, but helped women feel safe and men to potentially moderate their behaviour. Definitely not perfect, but has got to be a good thing, surely.

But this is no more guaranteed to work than the Ask Angela system, surely? It still has the same issue of the request being overheard by the person the woman is trying to escape from, and it still relies on staff being adequately trained to know what to do. But above all, it relies on the nerve of the woman to expose her situation and lose her dignity by asking for help in public, in a place where others can hear the conversation. At least asking for Angela doesn't reveal to any other potential predators that she's in trouble. I can imagine a scenario in which a woman asks for help at the bar, the bar staff aren't immediately sure what to do and an apparently decent man at the bar offers to drive her home — and turns out to not be as decent as he seemed. Also the potential for some sloshed bloke at the bar, overhearing her say she needs help, to wade in and thump the man she feels uncomfortable with.

As I said, easy to poke holes, less easy to come up with a solution. My suggestion? A poster on the back of each door in the Ladies giving a mobile number which will connect to one of the members of staff who's logged on duty. The woman can have a relatively private conversation with the staff member, who can arrange things and then escort her from the loo to the taxi or safe space or whatever, and no one else in the pub needs to know. I'm sure there'll be issues with that, too. No system is foolproof.

I wouldn't have a clue it's not a real drink, it sounds a perfectly plausible name for one! With the plethora of drinks on sale, including informal names for drinks, cocktails with bizarre names etc, I'm not sure a bar person's first reaction would be 'that drink doesn't exist' - more likely they would ask you how to make it.

I get that you could train people in one specific pub, but if 'ask for Angela' doesn't work universally, the more complex 'angel shot' code won't either.

I do. Not very often, but if I have an afternoon when my daughter is elsewhere and I’ve been out I might well stop in a pub to read a book/newspaper and have a drink and/or food. I’m less likely to do it in the evening, unless I’m away from home on my own, but I’ve done it then both home and abroad. I am sure I’m a long way from being the only one.

At least asking for Angela doesn't reveal to any other potential predators that she's in trouble.

But if the scheme is widely recognised, that's exactly what it will do. Predators can read posters and read BBC News articles the same as the rest of us can. Predators might work or have worked in bars or other hospitality at some point in their lives.

There we have the paradox - it's secret/discreet but unreliable as people don't recognise it, or it's widely understood at which point it's no longer secret/discreet.

This and also a lot of 1st or 2nd dates would take place in a pub surely ?

Well, the point, of course, is that venue staff would know. Obviously if you're at a venue that does serve "Angel Shots" (not a drink I've ever heard of, though that's obviously a very small sample size), then putting up posters saying to ask for one if your need help would be rather pointless. Also, if you're in an unfamiliar venue, chances are you're looking at a menu before ordering anything out of the ordinary.