I think I've just been banned from seeing my grandchildren!

[TiredRetired]

My parenting was different from the way my DIL is bringing up my two grandsons but that is not usually a problem. They are happy little boys.
Background; I had my 4 kids in the 1980s/1990s. I read the Continuum Concept and never looked back. We co-slept. Breastfed until natural weaning. Home educated second youngest until ready for school.
DIL was given lots of help by me to b'feed ( asked for) which she does diligently but not sure she really enjoys it. She sticks rigidly to meal & nap times which we have to come home for. I have always stuck up for her when other family members have rolled their eyes at this because they seem happy in the routine. I will occasionally get a lecture - for instance I once kept eldest out past meal time because we had stopped at a cafe. I texted not to worry about lunch but was told in no uncertain terms to come back immediately
I visited a few days ago in their new house they've just moved to. I was sleeping in the dormer bedroom opposite my 3 yr old grandson. He arrived in my room about midnight having undone his sleeping bag, climbed out of his cot and come through. It was cold in the rooms (corners often are) and his hands and feet were like ice. I know they don't like co-sleeping so I grabbed the duvet and took him downstairs to snuggle on the couch and warm him up. Just did not occur to me to put him back in his cot like that.
To cut a long story my son came through and said, I'll take him Mum. Suspected I'd done the wrong thing as he was quite short with me.
Got a lecture in the morning from DIL as though I was a small child myself and I'm afraid it went badly. After listening a bit I said "of course I'll do what you want in your house but my parenting was different to yours so it can be a bit difficult for me to know what to do here. I'm not 12 yrs old and I've brought up 4 kids. Can I not be the Grandma that's a bit different because after all, you're the biggest influence on them ( that's a precis of my side of it)
She was really angry and said she can't see how I can continue to visit and she doesn't know what else she has to do...
You get the picture?
I am heartbroken. Don't know at the moment now to fix this. I apologised and said of course in your house, your rules but there's something broken now

OP may I suggest looking into hotels near your DS and DIL to stay at for future visits. It will be a lot easier for them to cope with the disruption that your visit entails if you are not in their space at night and they are not having to play host to disapproving house guests at the same time as looking after two small children in a house they are still moving into. And don’t play the martyr in doing so.

Your Dil sounds like a pita.

The thing about families is they are occaisionally REALLY ANNOYING. Sometimes im annoyed with my ILs, sometimed my own parents but it's really a case of not sweating the small stuff. I grew up in a very large and loving extended family, obviously there are arguments and upsets but the "kids" have all grown up incredibly close to our relatives. Cutting people out only makes our worlds smaller.

I don't think an argument is the end of the world as long as you both just see it as a squabble, which of course happens. My MIL talks about things her own mum did with the GC that she found annoying, twas ever thus!

We've moved house with young kids - then immediately had to have IL over - it's really stressful and minor thing you can usually cope for a few days do explode.

I wonder if she suspect you of taking him of his bed - rather than him wandering and being cold - and as PP have said warming him up by putting him in his own bed would probably have been better and what I think most people would have done. It does sound as if you are coming across as subtly undermining and think you know best.

You could suggest next visit stopping in a hotel/B&B so they have confidence you won't be interfering in their night routines as much as will give you all a break - and then build trust back up.

Why are you "subtly" suggesting anything OP. Honestly, leave her alone. I've read all your posts and you're judging her so much in each one, just leave her be. It's more than admirable she's still breastfeeding when she finds it so hard and maybe she doesn't want a big circle of Mum friends. I don't, I would find that overwhelming. Just let her be her own person. I can guarantee you you're not being subtle at all. The right thing to do would have been to put child back into sleeping bag and back into his own room. If you were unsure check with parents.

I can see you had good intentions just really badly executed! And also your DIL has a 7 month old and is breast feeding so still has lots of postpartum hormones and probably tired - none of which helps her not feel sensitive when she feels you are undermining her sleep training and criticising even if you only mean to offer advice when asked.
My husband likes to tell me solutions when all I want is a sympathetic ear and I think you forget that when you try to help DIL sometimes she just wants to vent and for you to commiserate and tell her she’s doing a good job.
I think you need to focus less on telling her your advice even if she asks purely as your advice works for your personality and for your kids, but is unlikely to suit her and will make her feel criticised. I would offer to stay in a hotel next visit and also genuinely apologise again for overstepping and promise it will not happen again and you don’t want to make their jobs as parents harder and that you think they are doing a great job. It will take time to rebuild the trust and relationship, but if you genuinely want to I think you can by showing you think they are doing a good job and not always offering advice or how you used to do things - even well meaning can sound judgemental. Good luck!

@Tandora

it wasn’t harsh at all I spoke about my experience of not liking the feeling of breastfeeding is the only option that NCT pushes. I found that breastfeeding coaches don’t take into account how hard/stresful/demoralising breastfeeding can be and how much judgement new mothers are placed under. This was hinted at by the op herself when she said she finds it sad that her DIL doesn’t enjoy breastfeeding. No one should have any opinion on how a baby is fed as long as they are fed appropriately for their age (breast or bottle). Not even the grandmother has the right to comment on this.

Perhaps I should have said IF the op is like that than I can understand why the DIL is fed up.

I thought co sleeping is only dangerous when they are under a year old?

Not if it wasn't my child and the parents were right there and it was the middle of the night and they had specifically said they wanted the child to spend the night in their own bed AND I was rarely there and not part of the child's every day life, no.

You both sound like you are fixated on your way of doing things
all you can do is apologise and reiterate that you will do things their way to the letter no deviations

What's danger got to do with it?
Parent tells grandparent not to do something
Grandparent decides to do it anyway because it's not dangerous?
That's not really how it works!

I'm a DIL in this situation and I'm on your side. I'd rather my 3 year old be downstairs with a blanket and grandma then upstairs freezing in their room because they've worked out how to take their sleep bag off and it's cold/windy outside! I'm pretty strict with bedtime/naptime schedules as I love my sleep so I've always tried to encourage a good routine with sleep in the hopes that this will help when my son is older but sometimes there will be disturbances in the routine and the odd missed nap or late bedtime isn't the end of the world! My parents used to do all sorts in the 90s and let us sleep wherever - I remember trying to sleep in an Izuzu outside a young farmers barn dance once! And all the smokers coming to stand by the truck and waking me and my sister up!

Obviously you can't go to them and say you disagree with them but is it worth (when they've cooled a bit) attempting to explain that he turned up in your room cold as ice having worked out how to unzip himself and you were doing what you thought would warm him up quickest. I'm sure you've already tried but maybe worth another go when things have settled.

In my eyes this wouldn't be the hill to die on as a DIL, were there tensions between you already?

Absolutely!!

If she’s finding it hard then feels you don’t think she’s doing things right - that’s going to sting. If she’s finding it hard the routine may keep her sanity. If she’s finding it hard and is worried the routine will break down, she will be the one to have to fix it.

I think you need to give her a break. She probably knows you think she’s unreasonable. In my experience if you tell a stressed out person what they need to do they just become defensive.

In terms of the child being cold. We know he got himself out of his sleeping bag so it might well not be the cold that woke him but rather he got cold when he got himself up. The answer to that is to tuck him back in.

I know you talk the talk of it being their house, their rules and respecting their parenting but your actions don't really reflect that.

The impression I get from you is that you absolutely believe your style of parenting was the 'right' way and that your DS and DIL's methods are 'wrong'. I can imagine that's quite frustrating from the DIL's POV.

I've experienced this myself. My MIL is from a very different culture to my own and doesn't speak English, we've butted heads on parenting styles far too many times to count and DH is always the one in the middle. Sleeping and feeding were 2 issues which constantly came up....I am totally against co-sleeping, she co-slept with all of hers. I did BLW, she hated that. I followed the empty cot, safe cot rule, used sleep sacks etc, she would fill the cot with cuddly toys, put DD1 in extra layers and repeatedly added multiple blankets (she had an obsession with the cold - i think it's a grandparent thing).
It came to a head and we now stay in a hotel when we visit and vice versa (DD1 is now 4 but I still wouldn't trust MIL not to find a reason to get her up from her own bed in the middle of the night to cuddle in with her).

Who's to say which is the right or wrong way but it is ultimately down to the parents to decide what way they choose for their children and other family members including grandparents have to respect that. If you know there is a set routine for meal times, why would you stay out longer at a cafe? You either agree that in advance or you make sure he's back in time.
If you know they don't co sleep and he sleeps in his own room, why wouldn't you just take him back to his bed and tick him in instead of taking him downstairs to snuggle with you?

You're not unreasonable for having different views and styles of parenting but you are unreasonable for knowing what theirs are and deliberately going against them.

I hope for all of your sakes this gets resolved soon or it's your little grandson that will suffer the most. He needs his grandma too!

You sound really nice OP and quite empathetic with your DIL. If she's over-tired and stressed then maybe you can see her lecture in this light. She might be very overanxious about getting enough sleep. It might be irritating to have bright and breezy grandma saying she wants to be herself if she is then left with a disrupted routine when you go again. Whilst she obviously asks for your advice, it could also be a bit undermining to have a person who has had four kids making out it's a breeze if she's finding things hard for whatever reason. You do represent yourself a little here as the relaxed one who never had an issue and never struggled. But obviously there were a few issues and you say you're not that close to him.

The lovely thing you said here was you were just trying to make sure they had a good night's sleep and made an error in terms of how they wanted you to handle it. I think you should just say this so they realise you were thinking of them. Her in particular.

You know you sound very nice and supportive but also maybe seeing your role as the one with a more relaxed parenting style who found things not too stressful, which could make her feel a bit bad if she is more anxious or struggling with sleep or whatever. Sometimes it's more helpful for people not just to give advice from a position of what worked for them but to be more open about their own struggles with things. It might help her open up a bit or feel more like you're her ally as it really sounds like you are.

This. In honesty were you trying to criticise them for leaving their kid in a "cold" room. You could have got an extra blanket?

I'd like to hear the child's parents perspective.

Spot on!

Ultimately it's their way or the highway so your way or how many kids you have or what you think about her way is totally irrelevant here.

It's really not that hard. Do as the parents ask. Remember that they aren't your children. (And you aren't part of their everyday lives even so really have no idea what they need). If they ask for advice say that you can't remember it was so long ago and it's probably all different now and they seem to be doing great and are great parents.

Be genuinely helpful and uplifting and they will want you around.

One thing is for sure - however much you criticise and undermine them, you will never change their ways or become right - you will just end up pushed out.

Is this reverse? I can't understand how anyone can't sit and reflect on the situations given in the OP, and realise they're causing a young family undue stress.
Seriously OP, you can't just text to say 'taking little Jonny out for lunch, back later' when lunch has already been catered for at home. Surely before taking your grandson out you'd say something along the lines of "I'd really like to take Jonny out for lunch whilst I'm here, is there a day that would work for you?".
Kids throw their bedding off, they get cold, they wake up. Again quick cuddle and back into bed. You could give your grandson the 'gro-to-bed' sleep sets, They are a duvet which zips to the bottom sheet, stops the duvet being kicked off, also prevents risk of suffocation, as you can't get tangled up in the bedding, and stops falling out of bed.
You need to take a step back, next time you go and stay, ask how you can help, ask if you can take one or both kids out to do X, Y and Z. Don't criticise your DiL or you ds, you may not agree with their parenting, but it works for them, so keep schtum!
These were the things that my mil used to do, and honestly it would do my loaf in:
Change the kids clothes, because she didn't like dd in leggings so she'd put her in party frocks (dresses are totally impractical, especially so, when learning to go from crawling to walking).
Change ds out of soft comfy clothes into fussy clothing like a sailors outfit with very unforgiving fabrics.
Put make up on dd when she was 3!
Give them sugary shit every time we went to visit or she'd come to stay.
Bring endless plastic tat and bags of clothing, I know it was meant well , so I'd always thank her, but we live in a tiny house, and just didn't have the space for it. Funnily enough it did dh in more than me, but he could never say 'no' to her, and so he pretty much stopped inviting her over (I'm sure she held me responsible for this).
She used to demand constant cuddles and attention from the kids.

What I would have loved:
Taking the kids out for country side walks (we live rurally with lots of lovely walks from our back door).
Playing quiet games with them like bingo, (kids would have loved the attention and it's really good practice for turn taking and listening skills) read them stories, and taught them a few songs (mil was a really good singer).
To do some messy play with them, clearing up straight after instead of leaving me to do it, adding more to my work load
Given them fresh fruit / veg, prepped and cut up.
To ask us to stay, and ask dh to help with meal prep and clearing away, not expect me to do it all whilst trying to juggle looking after the kids...in fact I would have loved it, if she and dh cleared away as 1) they could chat whilst being industrious and 2) I could have had time with dc! Instead I'd be the one clearing away, whilst they would be chatting in the living room, telling the kids to pipe down, so they could chat 🤯, or ushering the kids into the kitchen for me to look after!
To not bring toys (except Christmas/ birthday and then not go overboard)
To not change their clothes, unless they were wet, they are not dolls to be played with
To not put make up on dd or squirt perfume over her.
To not give them junk food, and particularly not before lunch!
To not make 'helpful' comments aka criticise my parenting.
To not constantly tell me how lucky I am to have married her son!
To not demand attention from the kids and demand kisses and cuddles, of course if the kids went to her for affection, that's totally different, but it should always be on a child's own terms not on an adults.
And what I really wanted, was her acceptance of me as an individual, not as a wife or grandchild giver. She could have had a fantastic relationship with me, I'm easy going, genuinely like people, and looked after her when she had a bad fall resulting in a hip replacement. But she made it so hard, after we had kids, that in the end I left dh to do all the inviting / visiting, as a result we seldom saw her. She died a few years ago, the dc never really knew her, which was a shame, it could have been so different, but there we go, we make our choices for better or worse.

I wonder if they are stricter when you are around - we often were.

There was usually more planned and more happening and MIL especially had a thing about tiring kids out - fine expect it was exhaustion and lead to their capacity to cope being less leading to more melt downs ( ND) and tantrum which would lead to more comments and judgement about the kids and our parenting. Even watching the kids was more work - as adult who don't think about safety - means closer eye - and having to host as well.

A child being kept up at night rather than put back to bed - a more tried child next day which depending on child could be awful as some wake same times every morning despite bed time being later or up in night - or a child who then expect to be kept company every night they wake. I wouldn't thank you for either.

If you know how rigid their routine is,you should have taken grandson into your sons bedroom and told them he'd woken up.Let them deal with him in their own way.

Wow, can tell you're a mother in law not the mother in this story!

I don't think you've done anything wrong and I'd be upset also.

The impression I get from you is that you believe your style of parenting was the 'right' way and that your DS and DIL's methods are 'wrong'

This is a sentiment echoed over and over on this thread. I totally disagree. Replace MIL with "my mum" while you're thinking about this and ask yourself if you'd really react in this manner? That knowing you're exhausted with the new baby and the upset of a new house that you wouldn't have been grateful for granny taking care of the toddler when he woke?

Quite frankly I feel really sorry for those of you that have small children and such a rigid way of doing things that you risk completely alienating your own families.

@The13thFairy you sound like a loon!

This thread is full of golden uterus nutcases who deserve to one day be the mil who has to tiptoe on eggshells and never express any opinion, unless it's to gush at how wonderful dil is (even when she's being controlling and condescending)!