DD being ghosted by flatmate but still living together. WIBU for her to move out? Should the flatmate move out?

[Fluffytowels24]

Wasn't sure whether to post here or on the SEN board. DD is autistic, adhd, dyspraxic and dyslexic.
She's had to drop of out uni for a year due to MH issues. This includes the trauma of being bullied very badly at school.
DD met her friend, L, 3 years ago when they were freshers. They 'clicked' immediately and bonded over both having anxiety, as well as loads of other things. L is from our home town and it turned out they had a mutual friend although they'd not met till uni.
This year DD and L decided to move into a 2 bed flat, after both of them had lived in party houses. L was the first person DD told about having to drop out for a year, and L was really supportive about this, helping her look for jobs etc. L had deferred for a year last year and this is now her final year.
Their flat was meant to be a kind of safe haven for DD, somewhere she could heal before going back to uni next year.
About 10 days ago L started being very off with DD, barely speaking to her. DD, L and a few others went out for Halloween and L started acting normally towards DD, so DD assumed that whatever had upset L had passed. But then when they were back in the flat, L started shunning her again. She's absolutely ignoring her: won't say good morning, if DD tries to make small talk L literally ignores her. DD has messaged to ask L what is upsetting her, please can she tell her, and that she's very sorry for whatever it is that has caused her to start ignoring her. But L just reads the messages and doesn't reply.
When a mutual friend came round, L behaved completely normally towards him, then promptly went back to ignoring DD after he had left. So I don't think that L has gone into a severe depression.
DD is obviously really hurt and confused by this. She has written notes to L which L has totally ignored, leaving them where DD has put them out (e.g. in the kitchen).
DD has wracked her brains and really can't think of anything she has done to upset L. They've not had an argument or anything. DD is a good flatmate, she cleans up after herself, doesn't leave a mess etc. She and L spent a lot of time making the flat nice and homely when they first moved in. But now DD doesn't want to live there as she's got to share with someone who's literally ghosting her, but living with her.
They haven't lived together before but they went backpacking last year and had a really nice time; they seemed to be compatible in terms of sharing space, drinking levels, going to bed at similar times etc.
I am not sure where we can go from here -
DD has come home for a long weekend as a friend from school lost her mother and she had to go to the funeral. She doesn't want to go back to the flat now. (When DD told L why she was coming home, she just said 'OK' and didn't say anything about the funeral)

The lease is till June. I think it would be very unreasonable to expect DD to live in this environment for the next 9 months, being shunned and not knowing why.

If anyone has been in a similar situation I would really welcome any suggestions. Many thanks x

Thanks for your message, very helpful advice xx. I don't like the trend for ghosting either; it makes people really worried for no good reason. I would prefer people just be honest.
I think DD will have to write her a letter and put a deadline in it.
I hadn't really considered L being in competition with DD but maybe she is. It's all just so weird!

I'm thinking even more as the thread has progressed that there is an element of jealousy or some kind of power thing going on with L. I expect L really bonded with your daughter initially over their shared adversity and kind of sees her as a sort of protege. Having a friend who had shared challenges probably made her feel better about herself, and the flirting with the friend thing was an attempt to put your DD 'back in her place', I think.
The fact that L won't articulate what is wrong and has gone silent makes a sort of sense with the above, because if she did it would make her sound ridiculous - and that's even if L's fully aware of what she's feeling.
Thinking logically, if your DD had behaviours that were annoying or upsetting L, L should/would be able to articulate this, 'You keep taking too long in the shower and it's making me late,' or, 'You keep finishing the milk and not replacing,' etc.
L's probably not a bad person, but even so, your DD shouldn't have to bear the brunt of whatever ever deeper issues L has.
If I were you I'd try and help your DD with practical steps to end the living arrangement and find something else. One of her friends might have friends that need someone for a flatshare?

Thanks for this; I haven't really considered jealousy being a factor. I think DD would certainly not imagine anyone wanting to trade places with her :S

Yes I think that DD and I to be fair thought it would be along the lines of not replacing the milk kind of thing but she really does try hard to be a good housemate, she is a bit of a people pleaser.

I expect L really bonded with your daughter initially over their shared adversity and kind of sees her as a sort of protege.

It might be that sort of thing; DD has had people who like to take her under their wing but in a patronising sort of way. Like she is a project / it's a pity friendship as a way to, I don't know, make themselves look like good people. Maybe, unfortunately, L has taken this route :( and DD didn't realise it. Normally in this dynamic the "friend" doesn't like it when the person isn't in crisis / is doing OK in life

If you want it to work, I’d focus on de-escalating and gently mediating. Support your daughter of course but maybe encourage her to leave L to it for bit and not make any assumptions about why L’s being like this? Until L is ready to explain, none of us can know what’s going on so anything like an ultimatum about moving out will only escalate the situation, especially if L has anxiety anyway.

Relationships can be really tricky, friendships and romances, so helping your DD to navigate this in a way that builds her skills and resilience. It can feel really awful when something like this happens but being able to take a step back, even when someone’s behaviour hurts you, instead of getting drawn into whatever is going on with them will help your DD throughout life.

Thanks @rrrrrreatt I think that we now rightly talk to our children about romantic relationships (consent, etc.) But maybe less on how to navigate friendships past age of primary school.

OP, you're talking like you know every facet of how they interact, but you don't live there.
The friend is only young herself and has anxiety and depression. She is clearly struggling and neither you nor your DD actually know why.
People are jumping to this being "bullying" when the flatmate could be in shutdown mode for any number of reasons. She has a whole life outside her relationship to your child.
You seem very conscious of your DD's needs but not to consider that the friend's motivations may be something other then being aggrieved with your DD.
If you feel it's unreasonable for DD to have to live there, talk to the friend and say you want to look for someone to replace DD on the lease.

"For your own mental health" doesn't always mean you logically look at the situation and decide to ghost someone. It may mean talking to them causes you unbearable anxiety, or they have upset you badly and you don't know how to deal with it. Yeah it's a fuckup and not idea but it happens. That's why it's called mental illness.

" Show your daughter how to stand up for herself and tell this girl to fuck off. If she makes your DDs life miserable your DD should do the same to her."

All the other girl is actually doing is pulling back. That's extreme. But if all the DD does is what the flatmate does they won't actually have too much of a problem, they'll just live out the year and move on. The DD wants more from the flatmate right now than the flatmate is prepared to give though, for whatever reason.

@carrotsfortea the girl probably can't afford to live on her own.

"All the other girl is actually doing is pulling back." @Geranen but that's not pulling back. Pulling back is toning down your level of interaction or maybe not hanging out so much in the mutual areas. Not ignoring someone completely every time they talk to you. It's a very extreme thing to do and not normal behaviour. It leaves another young person with a very abnormal situation to deal with and with an inability to communicate with the person they are living with and will need to communicate with over practical matters whether or not they are still friends.

I think if L had said to DD that she wanted to pull back, and was still being civil to her, that would be fine and DD would be OK with that (albeit naturally a bit sad as it's always a bit sad when friendships drift).

But it's the complete lack of civility or any interaction at all that is what is so upsetting for her.
L has completely withdrawn from all contact: if they are in the (small) kitchen she won't say good morning, she will sit in the same lounge / dining room as DD and will studiously ignore her when it'd be easier to just say hi. She will stay in the room having ignored DD's saying "hello" until it just feels so weird and unpleasant that DD ends up being the one leaving and having to retreat to her room. It's just common courtesy to greet your housemate, even if you don't like them much, surely? And then ghost entirely once you have moved out, if you are the ghosting kind!

I don't think it's reasonable to expect DD to have to put up with this silent treatment.

I also think that DD's autism seems to be a bit of a red herring as lots of PP's have made references to how difficult it must be for L to live with an autistic person. But DD is good socially. She does have anxiety, she does have food preferences, wears earplugs on buses, has special interests, she does like routine... but she is still a good flatmate, she managed OK up till now in shared houses. And L has known DD is autistic for 3 years and as I have said, they've been friends during this time. DD can read social cues and if anything overly cautious about being seen as a nuisance. She's not pestering L incessantly, it''s not like she wouldn't pick up on it if L wanted a bit more space because I'm sure that she would. For better or worse she's not like the 11 year old who was being picked on for being different anymore (and I think that this is a shame, because she lost a lot of confidence after being bullied and has never really recovered the 'spark' that she once had).

I've put that DD is ND because it makes life harder in general, e.g. her lack of executive function means that she didn't get the support from student services which she needed, and also because maybe if she hadn't been so horribly bullied at school, being given the silent treatment would bother her less, because it wouldn't be triggering in the same way.

Just feel like I need to clear this up really!

Poor DD is racking her brains for what she's done to make this happening, but she has most likely done nothing at all; somehow this is L's way of being at times. DD needs to think constructively about what to do next. Clearly this is no safe haven for her so she and you need to find a way for one or both of the girls to move out of the flat.
Since DD has particular difficulties, it isn't out of order for you to get involved and talk to L about what the next stage is now that she's sent DD to coventry and has made it impossible to continue living with her. Putting it like that might move things forward. But I don't think either of you should trust L again.

Apparently there is a trend within universities where students are socially excluded. I know someone this happened to and it caused them to have a breakdown. They had done nothing wrong except being on the receiving end of a breakup. They were hurt and bewildered and it could have destroyed them but thankfully they rebuilt themselves and it’s all fine now. I think this idea that you can simply stop talking to someone ‘for your mental health’ as put forward by @ColaCar is one of the most self-absorbed and socially damaging trends of the times. It epitomises everything that is wrong with the ‘me first’ attitudes of today’s world.

@MargotwithaT how is this a trend within universities? 🤔 Ostracising has happened everywhere for a long time. Definitely not a university trend.

I’m just quoting what’s been reported in the news @loropianalover Universities are quite concerned about it apparently. I’m not really surprised to be honest.

What universities have expressed concern and/or what news source? I’ll read into it tomorrow. I’ve googled it just now but not getting any statements from uni’s or recent news.

Google Dr Dominique Thompson.

I absolutely won't trust L ever again! No way! I don't think DD will either even though friendships are really important to her.

Yes agree - certainly no safe haven; DD has discussed going back for a bit but I think it would be bad for her mental health and self-esteem. If it were a regular falling out I wouldn't be so worried (I probably wouldn't even know about it to be fair) but it just seems so toxic and nasty of L and honestly I'm not sure whether she is someone DD can trust at all. Maybe she also rifles through DD's things, maybe when DD goes back, things will have gone missing or have 'broken'. It's all completely alien territory.

Oh that's horrible - break-ups at uni are bad enough without losing your entire social circle at the same time 😰 I wonder if the covid pandemic made shunning / ghosting more fashionable or something? Easier to ghost if not mixing in real life, just online.

Thank you. I agree with all of this... It's not within the realms of normal human behaviour to be so extreme in behaviour as L is acting. It's not like she has just got in a huff about something.

DD is still at home, not going back till the end of the week. Messages to L are still sat there without a reply. Normally if one of them went home they'd be messaging back and forth. It really feels like L wants to have the flat to herself, with DD paying half the rent, half the utilities, and then all of the council tax 🙃

That all sounds awful. I would recommend your daughter tells L she’s deeply uncomfortable with the situation, she’s asked what’s wrong and has had nothing back so she clearly can’t resolve it, therefore she now needs to move out and suggests that L find a replacement within the next 1-2 months.

She can either send a text or write it in a note or even speak to her face to face. As long as she gets the message across calmly.

I am ND and had something similar in my mid 20s, me and a good friend moved in to a 2 bed flat for a 12 month contract around September. By November things had soured badly. For some strange reason when I fell sick with pneumonia in October for 2 months she was super angry at me and was so spiteful.

We did have the option to end the contract half way through but I really couldn’t be bothered moving and it wasn’t completely bad yet. Things deteriorated in the last 6 months though. She would claim things like I should pay more of the energy bills since I spent more time at home or moan at me for a few crumbs on the worktop when she used to live her dishes unwashed for multiple days!

Looking back it was a horrid
situation but I just got on with it. ND women are often targets for bullying and silent treatment but I don’t really tolerate it which is why she gave me the silent treatment.
I couldn’t make her talk to me but I didn’t pander to her at all!

I’ve had other terrible flatshare situations including one girl who complained about me washing my breakfast bowl at 7am in the morning as it “woke her up” 😕

Honestly this kind of thing is so common that it annoys me when people think flatshares are the answer for everyone who can’t afford to live on their own. They can feel very unsafe and hostile for a lot of us.

I think the pandemic may have had something to do with it. It was horrible for this YP for a while but they ended up with a better friendship group and fantastic experience. It could have gone the other way though because they were very low. I really wish your DD the best of luck with this situation. It’s cruel and bewildering that some people feel it is ok to act like this.

No, no. No,

Anyone is absolutely entitled to pull back, end a friendship etc due to any or no reason.
what is not ok is to point blank ignore a flatmate
It's rude, unacceptable and bullying.

I couldn't give a shit about the mental
Health of L. If she cannot articulate by email, text or note or her voice what the issue is. Then she has no business living an adult life.

We owe each other civility if nothing else .

So sorry you went through that it sounds awful! 😪 How can someone be angry that you got pneumonia ffs.

I love the advice about saying that the situation clearly cannot be resolved so we need to look at options. Because that is really sensible. I think L has made it clear that she doesn't want to resolve the situation (or can't do so, if I am generous).

And YES, ND women are so very often the targets of bullying which just seems really unfair. As if DD doesn't have enough to deal with this year 🤯

She's really started to ruminate now, worrying she said something inappropriate when they'd had one too many glasses of vino even though she knows for a fact that this is not the case (as per my PP she is super-cautious about putting her foot in it). And her other friend who is also autistic has been going through the nights they hung out and she is sure DD didn't say anything untoward at all, let alone something which deserved this kind of extreme behaviour from L. (Unfortunately this friend lives with her boyfriend so DD can't sublet to her and there's also nowhere for DD to stay at hers, not that she should be the one moving!)

Thanks for this- I can't think of a single MH issue which would cause you to stop speaking entirely to one person, to the extent that it makes them really uncomfortable, but where you were able to chat completely normally to a friend of the person you're ignoring.
It isn't like she has become psychotic, or catatonic, or manic.

Glad to hear that they came out the other side 😊
It really is extremely cruel I think. I am starting to think L wants out of the flatshare for whatever reason, but doesn't know how to say this so is deliberately creating instability for DD so that she will be then the one who actually suggests pulling the plug.