...to think that women should be able to warn other women....

[thebrollachan]

...about the behaviour of specific men in their friendship group?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cancel-culture-death-oxford-university-b2643626.html

(The incident appears to have happened a few days before his death, was sexual in nature, and involved an ex-girlfriend.)

Maybe it was a lie. Or a mistake. Or it really happened and she didn't want other women to run the same risk.

What it wasnt was "cancel culture".

I found this reporting really problematic. The coroner does not ascribe this death to 'cancel culture'. And I would 100% want women to be able to warn each other off men who violated their boundaries. Unintentional is very vague but inexcusable is a very strong word. It makes me wonder what he actually did.

It's a very sad case and devastating for the young man and his family but poor reporting of a complex case can be really harmful. It's not up to young women to carry the shame of men's 'inexcusable' actions.

And with respect that is you. Not everyone behaves the same.

Surely the even bigger issue here is that a newspaper has hijacked a suicide in order to stoke a culture war and invite speculation as to whether sexual misconduct occurred, for rage bait clicks. The media in this country are shameless

@YourHangryAmberPombear ...he was facing going into Uni every day where everyone shuns him, might even say something nasty to his face or physically confront him as had already happened, stare, whisper, walk away if he tries to speak to them, move if he sits next to them, send texts to their friends about him being in the room, he'll see the Whatsapps and snapchats, see the things he's not invited to and hear the jokes...

Where is this reported?

If there was a mass shunning by the whole college (and the Independent is sketchy about this, with just a handwave at "cancel culture" and not even reporting the fisticuffs with the male friends), then I blame social media.

It used to take so long for gossip to spread that it would run out of steam. Now, everyone 'knows' everything instantly.

I do not know what the solution is.

Someone else that hasn't read the article, the other posts or any other information about the case.

Well done.

Yes but you are all clawing over the details of a young man’s (barely out of childhood) suicide.

it’s unspeakably tragic and I think you should all have a bit more compassion.

It is up to women and men to actually read posts on a thread and read more than one article and read it properly though.

Which you haven't done. Nor did the OP which is why you've based your reply or her incorrect assumption that this was a case of a woman warning other women of men and being shamed for it.

When that's not what happened at all.

My ex constantly threatened to kill himself. He did OD a couple of times and once slashed his wrists.
He also bit a chunk out of my face. Stabbed me with a blunt kitchen knife. Raped me repeatedly. Strangled me until I blacked out several times.

He never got arrested or faced any real consequences for any of this.

Some people don't believe me when I talk about it because he seems like a very mild mannered man when he's sober.

I guess if he had succeeded in killing himself many people would go round talking about 'the lies I'd spread and how it effected him'

I don't know what happened here but trying to blame women for trying to protect themselves is disgusting.
This lad may or may not have done what he's accused of. But his suicide isn't due to women talking to much, or people getting too serious about accusations of sexual assault.
Perhaps if the police actually took things seriously and did something people wouldn't have to get all "cancel culture" about it. As it stands tho what else are we supposed to do? Just keep quiet about things thar happen to us.. not believe other women when they warn us.. on the off chance a man may hurt themselves about it?
No thanks. I'm not putting jy own life at risk or the lives of any women and girls at risk. If I hear a rumour about a man I believe it to be true until proven to me otherwise. I'm not taking risks ever again. I did not listen to rumours about my ex when I should have.

And he is still out there walking round like nothing happened. People are still friends with him etc...

It's a tragedy fir this lad and his family but blaming women isn't the way forward.

Hmm.

I'm not going to comment on this situation because i don't know enough about it.

However teens ostracising other teens for their behaviour is absolutely a thing.

For example one teen I taught got into a row with another teen and shouted a very unpleasant racial slur. There were plenty of people around (it was break time) and everyone heard.

Nobody wanted to be friends with her and only a very few people stuck by her. She was seen as racist (which she was...).

It's very difficult from a school/college point of view because you cannot force people to be friends.

And just using this example. Is not wanting to be friends with a racist “cancel culture”? Or is simply quite rightly no longer tolerated to have such attitudes?

I understand everyone makes mistakes, truly. Young people say and do things they wish they hadn’t, but the world has changed. If there was a pile on like here and someone is ostracised, are those that cancelled the person to blame?

(rhetorical comments not aimed at you specifically)

It's not cancel culture as it's not about unpopular ideas. I believe that he was socially ostracised, which is a horribly painful experience for most. We don't know what happened and it's a very sensitive issue seeing that several young people and their families must be going through hell.

I feel sorry for the woman who will be blamed for his suicide, which could drive her suicidal and destroy her life on top of having to come to terms with what sounds like sexual trauma.

I am impressed that people told him he did wrong and stood up for the woman. There must have been additional issues maybe near diversity (It's oxbridge) we don't know about that have led to such a drastic action so quickly.

Ostracising people is cruel it's a very sad story all around. I hope the young woman involved can find happiness and peace in life, very tough.

Just a reminder, think twice before you snub and ostracise people, it's torture.

But is that cancel culture, or is it just young people being a bit priggish?

I'm not sure it's either of those things. When authorities can't be relied upon to do the right thing in allegations of something "unintentional but unforgivable" then it naturally follows that people will take justice into their own hands.

In this case, shunning, which is completely legal.

Perhaps the coroner might like to lay responsibility at the feet of a justice system that can't be trusted, rather than at the feet of young people trying to protect themselves and each other as best they can, rightly or wrongly.

I think that the question has resolved itself in my mind to something like 'should I reveal something discreditable about someone if it might lead to them being bullied, including by people who aren't even involved (because gossip/social media)?

I doubt the young woman foresaw what would happen.

Having been through the heartache and trauma of a young student taking their own life this year, I wouldn't wish this on anyone. It wasn't my child, but my friend's child. Nothing is worth that. The pain that radiates out and will never go is crippling

It’s heartbreaking. There is nothing noble in taking a stance on a situation that you only know about through hearsay. If you weren’t there, you don't know exactly what happened or how much each person along the way has embellished the ‘facts’. Or whether any of those people have an agenda. It’s mob mentality and it’s so dangerous.

I suspect the judge has referred to it as ‘cancel culture’ in the hope it gains the attention of young people and prompts them to think of Alexander and his family and the consequences of acting on second hand information before deciding to do what they are inclined to believe is ‘morally right’. It is better to do nothing at all than it is to take such a hard and cruel stance on something that reaches you through hearsay.

You understand people have thoughts and fears right? It's not necessary to say oh this was definitely going to happen when you're talking about suicide, it's what the person thought, felt and feared.

How do you think most people react to an an allegation of some kind of sexual misconduct even if they don't know the facts? they jump, as most people have on this thread to thinking the worst.

So say you were 20 and accused of that. But the person accusing you hasn't actually reported it to anyone formally and doesn't intend to so you're not going to be formally accused, have a chance to defend yourself or a fair hearing but in the 3 days since it allegedly happened, numerous people have been told about it, one person has had a 'physical altercation' with you because of it, the rumour mill is in overdrive and you avoid going to brunch on the Sunday but your friends organise a meeting with you to tell you they think you've done something terrible in a sexual way and that they want space from you and might check in with you in the future but with no timeline given and as you're at Uni, you know this has already spread all around campus where you study and also likely where you live and there's been a collective pile-on.

How would you feel about going into a lecture on the Monday morning? Would you think it was fine or would you think you were facing everything I outlined in my PP.

Because that was what Alexander was facing. It doesn't mean it would definitely happen anymore than someone committing suicide because of extreme debt was definitely going to experience all the things they thought they would.

The report and criticism refers to the culture at this specific university, I don't think anyone is blaming her (although to note she didn't warn other women, she spoke to a man and didn't wish to formally report it). A culture which purposefully and systematically ostracises people in an oddly methodical manner in the way described isn't healthy, it isn't just about someone's mates choosing to be friends with someone anymore or not. You seem very keen though to jump on this young man's suicide to push your agenda. The university also has a duty of care.

I think he should have called what it was, which was bullying. Calling it cancel culture invites young people to ignore him, because they think of it as a tory culture war shibboleth not a real thing.

I'm sure the coroner was given the full facts of the case and knows a lot more than people on mumsnet reading a newspaper article.

If anything good can come of this thread, each and everyone that reads this, please consider speaking out when see or hear of cruel and unfair behaviour on your social media, including on What'sApp groups.

I am checking my dc's groups. They're in secondary school and youngsters are totally in the habit of saying horrible reputation destroying things about people they don't like and spreading this across their channels sometimes to hundreds of local people.

I have seen one or 2 girls speaking up when this happens and am inspired by them. One girls' mother is equally outspoken when things aren't right on SM, which is the right thing to do. I've been baldy bullied and find out difficult to stand up for others. I admire those who do. 💜

But they're referring to a very specific university and the specific culture at that university which yes, has elements of cancel culture like methodology. I'm not sure why you're finding it complicated to comprehend.

With respect and compassion for your experience, that has fuck all to do with this young man or his suicide or even this thread.

There is an astonishing lack of not just reading comprehension on this thread, but an astonishing lack of reading anything to do with it at all and just making up wild assumptions and pointless posts about something that didn't even happen.

I don't think anyone on this thread has blamed any woman at all. For anything.

And at no point in the actual fucking inquest into the case has it been suggested even once that the young woman involved told even one woman about it, let alone was trying to warn other women. She told a load of men. And not once has any reporting said she was blamed for anything.

OP made up that the woman involved was warning other women and somehow being blamed for it. None of that happened.

RTFT.

I think young people do refer to ‘sending to Coventry’ and ostracising as being ‘cancelled’. The young ones I work with certainly do. Either way, I hope this reaches them and makes them think twice before acting if ever they find themselves in a similar situation.

Do they think of 'cancelling' as a good and virtuous thing, though? Because 'bullying' is surely never good.

You blame social media?

Like you just used social media to totally invent something that didn't happen to start a thread because you couldn't be arsed to actually find out some facts before making a claim of something that didn't happen?

Then numerous people also couldn't be arsed to find out facts or even read the thread but agreed with you and it goes on and on.

Yep social media is a problem and you're demonstrating it as you are part of the problem.

You couldn't even be arsed to read the article you linked and didn't even know what media outlet it was from before you made wild assumptions.

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM and everyone like you.