...to think that women should be able to warn other women....

[thebrollachan]

...about the behaviour of specific men in their friendship group?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cancel-culture-death-oxford-university-b2643626.html

(The incident appears to have happened a few days before his death, was sexual in nature, and involved an ex-girlfriend.)

Maybe it was a lie. Or a mistake. Or it really happened and she didn't want other women to run the same risk.

What it wasnt was "cancel culture".

I feel I need to keep pointing out that, although the college reportedly had a culture of:

[people who had not been] formally accused of something [but] being ostracised because of rumours or unreported allegations...

the coroner concluded that this was not what happened in this particular case, which involved a falling out within a small friendship group.

It's irresponsible of the press, and disrespectful to the young man's family, to blow this up into a story about cancel culture.

One of the (unrelated) examples described was of a widespread shunning that was organised via Instagram. Now that's what I call cancel culture!

Not referring to this case specifically but as an example:

I wonder how many women have taken their own lives in the last 12 months as a result of a sexual assault, that very often leaves them ostracised and traumatised. Interesting we see such little/no reporting of that yet this thread and some of the comments (by what’s likely to be a lot of women) is eye-opening. Including:

• she should STFU
• If that happened to me I wouldn’t broadcast it (ie. it’s not real)
• unless something is proven in a court of law no-one reasonably form an opinion

Do you have a link to the insta shunning example? Very worrying.

https://freespeechunion.org/i-lived-in-fear-of-being-cancelled-as-an-oxbridge-student-we-all-did/

“I witnessed cancel culture in my first term at Oxford.
“Someone in my year was accused of racism in the week before the winter holiday. The allegation was vague and unsubstantiated and, as it turned out, untrue.
“The accuser created a group chat with most of our year on Instagram. Then they said that if we didn’t condemn them, we were just as bad. If we were friends with them, we were racist too. The messages of ‘support against racism’ pinged on my phone throughout the night.
“Over that holiday I went for a drink with the cancelled person to see how they were.
“They were on the verge of dropping out. It had ruined their life. No one was talking to them. People they had considered friends were icy.

(Please note this source is inaccurate about the coroner's verdict on Alexander Rogers, in that it says that he blamed Mr Rogers's suicide on pervasive cancel culture: in fact he concluded that there was no evidence of involvement of cancel culture - "I cannot say ... on the balance of probabilities, that this culture materially contributed to Alexander’s distress and his fateful decision on the morning of the 15 January.”)

Here are some more, vague, examples, including an oblique reference to that same Insta-shunning. This author just about manages to avoid blaming Mr Rogers's death on cancel culture.

FRANK FUREDI: We must foster tolerance on toxic University campuses www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-14066381/Frank-Furedi-foster-tolerance-toxic-University-campuses.html?ito=native_share_article-nativemenubutton

What a horrible place to study.

It's sad that he died but of course women should warn others of unwanted sexual behaviour or any other abuse.

The right wing press are just despicable aren't they? Shame on every "journalist" lying about this case.

Oh, sorry, did I just cancel culture? Who fucking knows anymore.

I have changed a few details.

A close family member attended Oxford and was interviewed by the police due to allegations made by his ex girlfriend (of a different faith). It appears that she had made up the story once she started dating a new boy (of the same faith).

Luckily my family member’s friends all supported him while the investigation was ongoing. There was no case and once all of the evidence was seen by the police (phones both checked for past messages, interviews etc) the police actually said that in fact family member was the victim and could actually press charges.

Family member went through a harrowing time though, awful. I can’t imagine what would have happened if he’d also been cancelled and accused when he was innocent.

This is a tragic story and I just wanted to give an example from the accused pov.

"Pressing charges" isn't a concept that exists in the UK legal system. Either the police think there is a case to pass to the CPS (which would be their decision, not the complainant's), or they don't. You can't choose whether to "press charges" or not.

That's true but if the victim is unwilling to co-operate in court, depending on the type of case, it might stand so little chance of success as to be not worth pursuing.

Apologies for the terminology. Basically he was the innocent party it was all false allegations. I’ve kept details vague!

Yes, but it's not the same thing. The fact stands that there is no such thing as a victim being able to decide to "press charges" in the UK.

Even if a victim is willing to testify and wants their abuser to be charged, the decision to do so rests with the CPS (and initially the police, who decide whether to even pass the case to the CPS).

I appreciate that, the "pressing charges" thing is a common misconception.

What about in the case of a private prosecution?

Because women are being blamed for his death. The subtext here is that nasty, mean women cancelled him and that led to his suicide. It’s trying to silence women.

We are allowed to tell someone that they’re behaviour upsets us.

His decision was his alone and a very extreme reaction to being ostracised by a few friends for a few days

Yes.

But what likely happened in the case that PP spoke of is that the Police didn't say 'do you want to press charges?' but said something along the lines of "we think a criminal offence occurred here, would you like to make a statement in this case to support a conviction and would be willing to testify to that in court?".

Most people interpret that as 'do you want to press charges?' because that's a very common in-use term even if not accurate legally. But the above conversation is usually what they're referring to.

(Same as thousands of people in the UK, including many on MN think there is a charge called 'statutory rape' i.e an older person having sex with a child under the age of consent when there is no such offence in UK law but it's common terminology and assumption)

And if the alleged victim says no so saying without saying it "I wouldn't like to make a statement in this case, support a conviction and testify to it on court" then the Police decide if it's serious enough and in the public interest to proceed to an investigation without a victim statement and then decide if there is enough evidence to present to the CPS.

They might do or they might not depending on what evidence they have.

Then the CPS decides to proceed to charge or not. And part of that decision is whether there is a realistic prospect of prosecution.

Without a victim or witness willing to make a statement to the offence and appear in court, the CPS can conclude that if the alleged perpetrator does not plead guilty, or pleads guilty but challenges some of the evidence, it goes to court and the defence team could potentially rip the case apart very quickly, depending on the other evidence available.

So yes, the Police can proceed with an investigation without a victim supporting it but there are many factors involved that contribute to whether that file is passed to the CPS or not and whether the CPS would proceed with a charge.

I believe it is, and let's be honest, it's happening in the wider world, not just inside our universities. The coroner was correct in raising these concerns and highlighting the bullying and how he was ostracised, which contributed to his decision to take his own life.

No they're not. No woman is being blamed for his death in the inquest or in the press.

Where did you get that from?

Not the same thing, and we all know that's not what people mean when they talk about "pressing charges".

It was Oxford University that called in an independent consultant to investigate possible cancel culture because this wasn't the only incident where it may have been involved.

The Consultant thought it was a problem in the Uni and could have influenced this case, testified to that and so the coroner took action in making recommendations about it.

That's the point of an inquest, to look at what happened around an unexpected death and identify what might have influenced it and make recommendations to address any identified issues to hope to prevent further simular incidents in the future.

I don't know why so many people seem to be objecting to what was found.

On this thread alone, we've had (presumably female) posters accusing her of "running her mouth off" and making the whole thing up. It's been implied that she fact she told her male friends shows that she was lying (and probably deliberately intended the men to hurt this guy).

I dont see how anyone could claim that she isn't being blamed.

If he behaved like a shit then she had every right to tell her friends and avoid him.
But no-one actually knows what went on here. He clearly had MH issues.
And as for ‘she should have reported it’

Come on! To what fucking end? He said she said… even when the evidence is overwhelmingly and cases go to court men are getting away with rape under the guise of ‘rough sex’ or ‘sleepwalking’ or other bullshit.

I agree, and I am pleased to hear that Oxford University did call in an independent consultant to investigate possible cancel culture. The coroner did their due diligence, and the inquest looked at all the contributing factors. This young man's family deserves to know what happened in the lead-up to him taking his own life.

That's not what you said initially.

You said:

"Because women are being blamed for his death. The subtext here is that nasty, mean women cancelled him and that led to his suicide. It’s trying to silence women.

We are allowed to tell someone that they’re behaviour upsets us"

There's no allegation in the inquest that any women were warned about him, or that women cancelled him.

It was all men involved that have mentioned in the inquest evidence.

You've substantially moved your opinion from your first post because you realised you were wrong with your first assertion so now you're saying well she's being blamed here.

Because if MN posters post threads without knowing the situation and other posters post in response to that in kind, of not knowing what they're commenting on and because of that, some posters seem to blame the alleged victim then that's the fault of the OP and posters who knee-jerk react to a title without investigating.

And the fault of MNHQ not having higher standards for threads

That's how damaging social media can be.

If the alleged victim is being blamed on MN that's the fault of MN, the OP and posters.

The inquest which isn't even concluded and the mainstream media haven't suggested anything at all about the alleged victim or any other women being to blame.

And it wouldn't have happened here if the OP hadn't posted a thread about it. Especially one which was misleading.