...to think that women should be able to warn other women....

[thebrollachan]

...about the behaviour of specific men in their friendship group?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cancel-culture-death-oxford-university-b2643626.html

(The incident appears to have happened a few days before his death, was sexual in nature, and involved an ex-girlfriend.)

Maybe it was a lie. Or a mistake. Or it really happened and she didn't want other women to run the same risk.

What it wasnt was "cancel culture".

Im.not sure tbh. My mum was my dads first marriage and he treated her appallingly. His subsequent marrraige was a real match and nowhere near the same. If my mum had warned my future step mum it wouldn't have been an indication of their relationship at all

it’s people believing their friend and making a decision if they still want to associate with someone who has hurt them
Who has hurt or they believe has hurt?
Would you be happy if a group of your peers decided you'd done something and found you guilty and ostracised you?

Obviously not, but if I had done the thing, fair enough, and if I hadn’t, well they’re still entitled to believe whichever side of the story they do and act accordingly. Besides he admitted he had done something, right?

It says in the article:

Dr Dominique Thompson, an independent consultant tasked by Oxford with investigating Rogers’ death, reportedly described a “pervasive cancel culture” as she said the allegations against Mr Rogers caused a “pile-on” effect of students agreeing with others because of an “unwritten” moral imperative to “do the right thing”.

It refers to a pervasive cancel culture. So this obviously isn't the first time this has happened, it's apparently common amongst students. Everyone piled on which obviously made life unbearable for him.

Btw is your username referring to Wong Kar Wai?

You didn't even read the article you linked! It was from the Independent for a start.

Which was this Call to review ‘cancel culture’ in universities after ‘ostracised’ Oxford student takes own life | The Independent

Where it clearly states that Oxford University employed an independent consultant to investigate 'cancel culture' at the University who concluded there had been a "'pile-on effect' of students agreeing with others because of an "unwritten" moral imperative to "do the right thing" and Oxford had called in an independent Consultant because of previous incidents like this.

It is 'cancel culture' if a bunch of students attending a University, or employees of a company or organisation arrange some kind of meeting to confront someone with allegations that the person who tells them something discomforting happened has no intention to formally report and have investigated.

And the outcome is that that person is told despite not having the allegations heard and investigated formally with some kind of due process, is now judged to have done something wrong and is meant to wait until people decide whether they want to be friends with them or not but in the mean-time, the social imperative for everyone around them is they can't be seen to be friends with them, doubting or questioning the allegations, or seen to be supporting them in any way otherwise they also risk ostracisation.

That's why Oxford Uni wanted an independent Consultant to investigate 'cancel culture', because it wasn't about people being allowed to decide who they're friends with, which of course they are. But that the 'cancel culture' meant people were not allowed to decide anything, people are being tried by their peers without any kind of actual investigation and anyone going against that was risking also being ostracised.

'Cancel culture' isn't people being rightfully shunned or shamed for wrong doing, it's people being shunned or shamed because of something they might or might not have been done, and the peer pressure is that everyone else needs to be seen to be doing 'the right thing' by going along with it.

Oh. and i'm not 'offended', i'm correcting you and pointing out that making things up to "pile-on" a dead young man when it's already been stated that kind of behaviour may have contributed to his death isn't a good look.

Hope that helps.

Yes, huge Wong Kar Wai fan!

I get that but I don’t think it’s the same kind of cancel culture as piling on someone who doesn’t have the same political views, for example. It’s a group of people supporting one friend who has been hurt by another. It’s very sad all round though.

We don't know what he did, dying for some trivial misdemeanour is terrible, if it was a rape or some other heinous offence it should have been reported to and dealt with by the police.

@YourHangryAmberPombear has posted a lot more succinctly than I was able to, given the fact that this young man is dead, and there were no actual plans to officially report him for whatever the allegations were, will it ever be clear that he was admitting guilt, or with the pile on, mass shunning was he at the stage of 'I'll admit to anything just leave me alone'? But how wonderful to think given the institution this is, that that's the group mindset of our 'future leaders' no trial or investigation required, we have weighed, measured you and found you wanting, our thoughts are enough'.

I'm also a massive Wong Kar Wai fan - he's one of my favourite directors. Also a huge Tony Leung fan.

I get that but I don’t think it’s the same kind of cancel culture as piling on someone who doesn’t have the same political views, for example. It’s a group of people supporting one friend who has been hurt by another. It’s very sad all round though.

Given the comments by the coroner and the findings of the investigation that cancel culture is pervasive in the student body, I think it goes beyond a few friends being upset by his alleged behaviour.

There seems to be a phenomenon of people being cancelled for perceived infractions. I imagine that could include anything people view as wrong think.

A young man took his life because everyone turned against him and he must have felt shamed and humiliated. I have no idea what it is he's meant to have done and it seems this didn't come out at the inquest.

Of course the young woman effected has every right not to associate with him but it seems it went beyond that in this case.

Huge Tony Leung fan too!

I know what you’re saying and I don’t like cancel culture either, I just think you can’t make people associate with someone they don’t want to, and clearly they believed their other friend and wanted to support her.

Just thinking if one of my friendship group told me another friend had done something inappropriate, I’d be inclined to believe her, have it out with them and maybe not be friends anymore. It’s not an unusual reaction?

terribly sad it ended how it did, of course.

I would also support a friend who was upset by someone's behaviour. However it seems his whole peer group 'cancelled' him which I believe is the crux of the issue.

IMO it's disturbing that this kind of behaviour is common amongst students as it's bullying. In a wider context, it's pressurising students to conform or risk being ostracised themselves.

What an absolutely tragic story, the OP and subsequent knee- jerk comments misrepresent the facts of the case completely.

The group of friends involved must be devastated. Calling it cancel culture is not accurate but I can see what they are getting at. University nowadays sounds terrifying.

Agreed.

Someone has also ‘allegedly’ had a sexual experience that caused ‘discomfort’ and which the person referred to as ‘unintentional but inexcusable’.

Measures also need to be taken to not silence alleged victims.

In a wider context, sure, but if you believe someone has acted sexually inappropriately, surely it’s fine to decide you don’t want anything more to do with them? Is it really bullying to believe your friend, and so not continue a friendship with the person who has hurt them? I’m inclined to think not. Even if several friends make that decision.

tif you do stay friends with them, what kind of messsage does that send to the victim? Men are constantly being told to stand up and say something, instead of letting their mates get away with their bad behaviour. It’s not an easy thing.

That's not 'cancel culture'. Believing a friend isn't 'cancel culture'.

What was investigated and found to be apparent in Oxford Uni was a 'pervasive cancel culture' where students piled on to another student they weren't even friends with because they've been accused of something, and the social imperative is that you then shun that person.

Nothing is secret or kept quiet in schools, universities or in lots of employment. EVERYONE knows something even if they don't know the people involved and the rumour-mill goes into overdrive where some things said are accurate and others are distorted, twisted, exaggerated or downright invented.

So that was what Alexander was facing. Not that he might lose some mates because of something he might or might not have done which was never going to be formally investigated.

But because he was facing going into Uni every day where everyone shuns him, might even say something nasty to his face or physically confront him as had already happened, stare, whisper, walk away if he tries to speak to them, move if he sits next to them, send texts to their friends about him being in the room, he'll see the Whatsapps and snapchats, see the things he's not invited to and hear the jokes.

For things that may be true or not.

Every day.

It's impossible to judge and the coroner said so, whether that was the direct and sole cause of his suicide but I think most people wouldn't want to face that.

I don’t think she was warning other women - she was telling her ex boyfriend and some other male friends about it. I’m not sure why exactly as there are no details about what he allegedly did.

There are also some young people who have quite a warped view of sex. On one hand they claim to be liberal and are against kink shaming so if you get off on wanking in the work toilets wearing rubber then nobody must ever have an issue with that. On the other, some of them balk at the thought of an 18 year old having a relationship with a 22 year old as apparently the age gap is problematic or something.

It’s very hard to give an opinion as it doesn’t say what he was accused of but someone immediately going round running her mouth off to several males doesn’t exactly scream traumatised in my opinion.

Has an alleged victim been silenced in this case?

Of course no one would want to face it. But if word gets out he’s done something sexually inappropriate, are you really saying people should be forced to still interact with him, even if they don’t want to and think what he did was very wrong? I don’t see how that would work.

We don’t know. It would appear not. But suggesting as a PP has that “someone immediately going round running her mouth off to several males doesn’t exactly scream traumatised in my opinion” ie. is not permitted to discuss anything that might have happened to them for fear of someone being cancelled is also not ok for the future.

It’s impossible to say without knowing what he apparently unintentionally did. But if I had had an encounter that left me feeling violated I think going to my ex and various other male friends would be the last thing I’d do. I’d tell a female friend and wouldn’t want it being spread around.

Exactly. It’s very dangerous. It smacks of the “it’s better to keep quiet than ruin a promising young mans life” culture so prevalent in US colleges.

Well he’s dead now so it’s quite extreme what the consequence was.
Although most people don’t kill themselves over an accusation like this. Even the majority of people on trial for heinous crimes don’t kill themselves or even attempt it. It may be that he already had suicidal thoughts and this tipped him over the edge. It said he had run a marathon to raise money for a suicide charity in the past so maybe he had MH issues already.

I don't believe it's as simple as that hence the coroner's comments. I don't believe the coroner is commenting on a handful of friends taking umbrage at someone who upset their friend.

Again, the investigation found that a bullying culture was prevalent within the student body where students are ostracised for perceived infractions.

We don't know what this man did, we just know that his behaviour made someone uncomfortable.

We do know that for some time, students have been cancelling people with views they don't agree with and that pile ons are common on social media. It appears it's also common amongst classmates which partly led to someone's death.

The investigator said:

It was shocking to hear that students were treating each other in this way, but I was not surprised by this pattern of behaviour.

The investigator wasn't shocked that friends were supporting a friend who was upset. They were referring to a pervasive pattern of behaviour which is shocking.

Thankyou for clarifying. I agree.

I also agree with a PP who said it was misogyny in itself that a bunch of testosterone-driven men took it on themselves to perform rough justice on another young male based on things they'd heard so they could be seen to be morally right or 'protectors'.

YANBU, I suspect gossip keeps more women safe than the courts.

This isn't cancel culture. I reserve the right to stop talking to a friend I believe has committed sexual assault. Or indeed for any reason at all.

It's desperately sad for his family but that doesn't mean there's anyone to blame either.