...to think that women should be able to warn other women....

[thebrollachan]

...about the behaviour of specific men in their friendship group?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cancel-culture-death-oxford-university-b2643626.html

(The incident appears to have happened a few days before his death, was sexual in nature, and involved an ex-girlfriend.)

Maybe it was a lie. Or a mistake. Or it really happened and she didn't want other women to run the same risk.

What it wasnt was "cancel culture".

100%

If people don't read what was said before having a knee-jerk reaction to a title in the news or on MN, it's no-ones fault but their own.

And it is endemic on social media including MN and is really worrying. Especially when we're talking about serious subjects.

Your quote is from someone else's post. I never said that.

The Consultant thought it was a problem in the Uni and could have influenced this case, testified to that and so the coroner took action in making recommendations about it.

And the coroner concluded that, on balance, it (cancel culture) did not influence this case, but nevertheless resolved to raise the problem (cancel culture) with the DoE.

His findings were completely appropriate. But have led to a slew of point-missing headlines about how this particular young man was 'bullied to death by cancel culture'(DT), despite the fact that's not what the coroner concluded.

That's disrespectful to his grieving family. And, yes, gives ammunition to people who think that women should not speak up, in case it leads to the sort of mass shunnings described by the consultant and in my two previous links.

Preventing mass shunnings should be do-able with the right rules around social media etc. But colleges will never be able to stop friends talking, and falling out, between themselves.

The headine of the article you linked in your OP was "Call to review cancel culture in Universities after student takes his own life".

You didn't read the article you linked which included exactly what you said in regards to the coroners findings.

But you linked it and made claims about it which weren't in the article or the title as in saying in your title 'AIBU to think women should be able to warn women and this is NOT cancel culture'.

The article didn't say anything at all about women warning other women as that wasn't presented as evidence and the coroner didn't conclude that cancel culture was the direct cause but an independent investigation commissioned by Oxford University found it was a problem in the University

The title of the Independent article you linked didn't even say 'cancel culture cause of death'. It said 'call to review cancel culture in Universities after student takes his own life'.

You didn't read ad the article or even understand the title before starting a thread and in one of your first posts something about choosing an 'eye-catching title'

Now you're attempting to gaslight MN by saying 'nothing to do with me being dim and not reading an article or even understanding the title before making an 'eye-catching title, the media has been irresponsible.

But since people repeatedly pointed out your linked article said nothing like you claimed, you're going with 'I'm going to try and complain headlines that weren't anything to do with my original post are shit and claim and now say it's disrespectful to the dead man and his family' and gives ammunition to people blaming women

YOU DID THAT. YOU STARTED A THREAD WHICH BORE NO RESEMBLANCE TO THE REALITY, THE CONTENT OR EVEN THE TITLE OF THE ARTICLE YOU LINKED AND NOW YOU'RE COMPLAINING THAT THE RESULT OF YOUR THREAD IS IT'S DISRESPECTFUL TO A GRIEVING FAMILY AND GIVING AMMUNITION TO PEOPLE WANTING TO SILENCE WOMEN?

THAT'S ALL ON YOU. READ BEFORE YOU START THREADS AND DONT MAKE SHIT UP FFS.

@OpalHam

I really don't think that I have the sort of influence that you imagine on the right-leaning MSM.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/11/11/alexander-rogers-student-bullied-to-death-oxford/

The newspapers have taken souch out of context.

The coroner said it was possible but could not conclude it was probable that - what they label cancel culture - was the reason he chose to die by suicide.

It looks like the parents are blaming the the friends and pushed for the review and are focusing on making the university address cancel culture to prevent more suicides. Even with the coroner not being able to conclude that was the reason for his death.

We can't know for sure what happened. His note said his actions were unforgivable. Unintentional could mean he was drunk. Men often do say sorry, they didn't mean to do something, they were drunk.

What we must not do is make it unforgivable for women to call out behaviour they find shitty at the hands of men. And we must not send mixed messages to people. We see campaigns all over now for men to call out other men when they are being sexist and misogynists. And now we're saying don't do that in case they are too fragile and end their life? What if she has reported something to the university and the friend group ostracized him then, would that not be allowed either?

We can't make others wholly responsible for his actions. If he was depressed and lonely, he could have sought support through the university.

These sort of headlines are disgusting. Is that even allowed?

There are various sanctions for telling lies, but they're hard to enforce in such a way that the public doesn't end up vaguely remembering the lies as truth anyway.

This will be horrible for the friends B, C and E.

Reported him for what?
No one on here knows what actually happened.
The woman herself decided not to take it further, no one knows why.
In the same way that some on here have said what she should do.
Some posters have also made up what he did.

Some posters have also made up what he did.

Please can you report any such posts if you're aware of them.

there is a whole world of regret and bad feelings that can happen in the context of sex without one party doing anything unethical or illegal. The trouble is when immature and dogmatic thinkers take a black and white view which paints one party as as bad/culpable and the other as victim. it’s a tragedy for women to be disbelieved. It’s also a tragedy for a well-meaning and innocent young man to be made to feel like an abuser because a woman has complicated feelings in the aftermath of consensual sex. We have no idea what actually happened but we do know that the man was sensitive enough to experience extreme unmanageable pain at the idea that he hurt someone and we also know that the woman had no intention of pursuing formal reporting (if the newspaper reports are correct). I expect black and white thinking on mumsnet but I’d expect more from Oxford students. It’s hardly their fault though I suppose, in this culture we have forged for them.

I am sure what you describe is possible, but it is common trope that women who did not give consent for something sexual that was done to them, and are upset, are really just women who now regret what they had freely allowed at the time.

We really don't know what happened. But we also really don't know that the friends C and E indulged in black and white thinking. They reacted based on their own knowledge of the central protagonists, which was all anyone could do in that situation. How would this have gone down if they were all fifty? Maybe not much different.

Except that, when things go wrong like this, suicide is a particular risk for young men. Maybe what the college needs is instant access to emergency counselling, to get them through moments like this.

I wonder whether the friendship group could have worked through it somehow, but never got the chance.

Well we know that their communications with this man were condemnatory enough to lead him to kill himself, so perhaps we can assume that they were not exactly cautious in their judgments.

I’d find it surprising if suicide was a usual course of action for genuine abusers. If it were, presumably we’d have fewer of them in this world.

I’d find it surprising if suicide was a usual course of action for genuine abusers.

Based on what? Your reckons.

A quick google of actual studies says you're wrong. pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9541809/ healthandjusticejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40352-021-00146-6

I mean I could post more but I think I've made my point. Don't assume you can just guess at what abusive men might do, in your own head.

Did you actually read that link?🤔 about 25% have attempted self harm or suicide- that leaves 75% who haven’t.

Don’t think you’ve made any point.

What an unpleasant post. He was somebody’s child and you have no idea what actually happened. All that has been mentioned has been somebody feeling uncomfortable who wasn’t taking matters further. You don’t know why that person was uncomfortable. It could have been regret. You’ve now labeled a young man who took his own life as a sexual abuser -“by your own reckons”

25% is rather high compared to background. People who are impulsive and aggressive are more likely to take out that aggression on themselves as well as others, not that there's any suggestion that happened in this particular case.

It's dishonest of you to accuse @MrsTerryPratchett of labelling the young man when she did nothing of the sort. She produced data to disprove your weird and untenable theory that people who commit suicide cannot possibly be abusers (you've only got to look at the daily papers to see this isn't true).

Exactly @thebrollachan

Data and statistics are important. Not unfounded reckons. I really object to being told constantly that reality is offensive or that we shouldn't talk about it.

Any alleged victim is also someone’s child.

Unpleasant in the extreme to suggest it was ‘regret’. Where did you find that word in any of the reporting as I didn’t see it? Absolutely disgusting phrase.

By your reckons, because no one can know details without video evidence, you’ve assumed unless someone takes it to the police AND the CPS decide to prosecute (which is out of the victims hands) it’s not true and they have no agency to talk to anyone about their experience.

I’ll call BS on that any day of the week, especially when you look at conviction rates.