To refuse to give my students feedback

[WiseBlankie]

Hi all!

I'm a university teacher. Every year I teach the same course in the second semester. I'll keep it vague, but basically the students are asked to design a rudimentary study, run it and write up the results. The official deadline for their report is in June. If they miss that deadline (or fail), they have three additional chances to hand it in during the following academic year (in September, November and January).

Anyway, the final meetings of this course take the form of tutorials: the students bring their designs-in-progress to class, we discuss them and I give feedback. The students who are diligent about this usually pass without issue. Unfortunately, many students skip these sessions or show up without having done any work, usually because they've already decided to opt for one of the later deadlines and postpone the whole assignment. What happens is that I then get lots of emails around this time of year to ask if I can give them feedback on their designs. Reading their work and responding to these emails takes up a lot of time, whereas during the tutorials I often sit there twiddling my thumbs because only a handful students bother to show up, and there is no work to discuss.

Anyway, I have started replying that if they had wanted feedback on their designs, they should have showed up for tutorials and done their homework, and that they're always welcome to retake the course.

My colleague thinks I am too harsh and that students are postponing assignments because they're overwhelmed. I do get this, and am willing to make exceptions for students who have had to deal with illness or personal problems, but right now I think there's this general attitude that only their own schedule matters. I am busy too, and teaching other courses at the moment. AIBU?

I think this is a really harsh position to take.
There will be a variety of reasons why students have selected the later deadlines - some will be laziness, many will be juggling other priorities. These students are paying tens of thousands of pounds to attend your course, and if your employer doesn’t pay you to support them a the right moments throughout the year, that’s something you should be taking up with them.

If they have several opportunities to submit throughout the year, all of these deadlines should be supported. They’re simply study date guides to help them pace the course.

I think there’s an argument to say that the available support will be slimmed down as the year progresses and therefore students who want to achieve the highest grades should plan and attend your earlier session. But this has to be explicit up front. To offer no help at all is absolutely savage.

I also think it’s worth reflecting on why you went into teaching / lecturing. Students are notoriously chaotic as they develop organisational skills. University is supposed to set them up for work life, and give them the opportunity to learn from their disorganisation. I think leaving them to struggle on isn’t teaching that lesson. I also don’t believe you became a uni lecturer for the money, you probably are passionate on the topic and teaching the students. Maybe there’s a wider disgruntlement here and the students are taking the brunt of it?

Again. They are not "later deadlines". There is only one deadline. Only one published date for submission. The other dates are opportunities that the students have come to know about when they will be allowed an opportunity to remedy failure should they not submit for the deadline.

I also think it’s worth reflecting on why you went into teaching / lecturing.

Most academics aren't academics because they enjoy or are good at teaching. They're academics because they love research. The teaching is the compromise bit that allows them to do what they love.

The students gain from being taught by experts.

I also think it’s worth reflecting on why you went into teaching / lecturing. Students are notoriously chaotic as they develop organisational skills. University is supposed to set them up for work life, and give them the opportunity to learn from their disorganisation. I think leaving them to struggle on isn’t teaching that lesson. I also don’t believe you became a uni lecturer for the money, you probably are passionate on the topic and teaching the students. Maybe there’s a wider disgruntlement here and the students are taking the brunt of it?

For the love of god. Academics are not there primarily to teach undergraduates. They are there to do research and alongside that they are required to do some teaching for undergraduates and usually also some for postgraduates. Many will also have admin responsibilities. It is a very different profession from schoolteaching.

The primary responsibility for setting young people up for a lifetime of work is on parents, surely?

@JustMyView13 - how are the ‘chaotic’ students going to learn organisational skills if they never have to face any consequences for missing deadlines/tutorials etc?

And for what it’s worth, at the age of these students, I was a student nurse, taking responsibility for the care of seriously ill patients. They are adults, and should be able to manage work deadlines.

If they can't be bothered to turn up for the sessions then it's on them OP.

Honestly the idea that they're all 'overwhelmed' is ridiculous - how many hours a week do they actually have? DS is autistic, 18 and doing a degree apprenticeship. He lives away and works 8:30 - 5 with a 45 minute commute Mon - Thurs and has 10 - 4:30 lectures on a Friday - plus assignments. He has as many hours in two days as a lot of uni kids have in a week.

In future OP I would be clear that the scheduled sessions will be the only time when feedback will be given, then there is no way anyone can complain or say they didn't realise.

Brain development doesn’t complete until mid-20’s. They are still learning and growing as people.

OP teaches them by offering them some kind of coaching or support. You don’t have to leave people to suffer and fail when they make a bad choice. You can support them to learn from mistakes through coaching, guidance and role modelling.

Going to uni isn’t just about the specific course, it’s about growing as a person, growth comes from mistakes and learning from them. Even top CEO’s make mistakes and have coaches. This mindset of leaving people to fail is simply bizarre. And we wonder why people’s mental health is so shot these days.

But hardly any fail do they? They are supported beyond what is reasonable to the detriment of the best students.

What they are being taught in the scenario you outline is that their lack of effort has no consequences and that people who are already seriously overworked (in a profession where, yes, mental health is known to be "shot") will bend over backwards to accommodate them. And, actually, what the OP is talking about is not to do with mental health issues, for which affected students would have reasonable adjustments in place.

I very much doubt, also, that employers are patting their young workers indulgently and telling themselves that they can't expect much from them until they're 25. This appears to be a middle-class accommodation that is only available to university students, and not their counterparts who go straight into employment.

I wonder at what point in a degree course you think it is reasonable to expect a student to submit work for assessment? Or at least for the tutor not to make themselves available at whatever time after the deadline the student decides they might submit? Ten years ago there were no issues with students submitting work on time, so clearly it's not a completely unrealistic expectation.

Sorry, I meant to quote @JustMyView13 there

Age of criminal responsibility - 10 in England, Wales and NI, 12 in Scotland (recently raised from 8)
Age of consent - 16
Age when we can get a full driving licence - 17
Age when we can vote - 18, and in Scotland for a referendum recently, 16 I believe
Also legal from 18: buying alcohol, getting married, becoming an MP or councillor
Younger than that, I think: joining the armed forces and the police, although possibly you wouldn't be allowed onto the front line in combat till 18
Not sure what age you have to be for tattoos or piercings or buying a knife, but it's 18 at most.

Obviously there's still a great deal of maturing to do between the late teens and the mid-20s - most of us know this from personal experience - but that doesn't mean we should treat those in their mid to late teens as if they were still babies.

I didn’t suggest we do. But somewhere between savagely not providing any help with their assessments to ‘teach them a lesson’ and doing the exam for them would be the sweet spot.
I’m just suggesting that a little compassion goes a long way. People who make mistakes are usually more successful when they’re supported.
Final reply on the topic though, because I think I’ve been super clear. And it literally makes no difference to my life if OP helps her students or not.

Savagely? Who's been savage? These young adults are told, as I understand it:

• you must pass this module
• the deadline for handing in your assignment is X
• here are the tutorial arrangements - this is how you get help with this assignment

Some students have delved into the programme handbook/regulations and worked out that (a) the module mark does not affect their final degree mark; (b) university regulations mean they will get three, yes, three re-take attempts the following year; (c) although the module mark will be reduced if they fail to meet the original deadline that doesn't matter because of (a). Then they have the gall to go back to the module leader and say 'I didn't bother handing it in on time last year, so now you need to re-run all the tutorials so I can be sure of passing this year'. No! Just no. If you game the system, that's on you. Part of their original calculation should be (d) I do have to pass, though, so maybe I should stick to the original deadline and go to the tutorials, as I'd have to do it unaided the following year - and sticking to the original deadline has the bonus that next year when I will have a lot to do and the marks for next year's modules actually do count towards my degree classification I'll not be eating into the time I need to spend on those.

If a student isn't capable of working out (d) for himself/herself I'd question whether he/she should be at university at all.

@JustMyView13 - I think that @WiseBlankie and her university DO provide plenty of support for the students - five tutorials to assist them with the project, and three extension dates if they don’t do the work by the official deadline. I am damn sure that, when I was at university (in my late 20s) none of us, not even the 18 year olds I studied with, were getting three extensions for our work.

By my mid twenties my nurse training set were all qualified - some of us working in operating theatres, ICUs, running wards, in charge on night shifts - taking on adult responsibilities with no extensions or hand holding. Are today’s young adults so much less capable?

They are offered five tutorials in advance of the (single) deadline. How does that constitute "savagely not providing any help"?

I agree with you.

Off topic - On a lecture course of 200 students and the lecturer offered a revision session. Only 12 students showed up. One said because we are the only ones here, can you tell us what is on the exam, and she did.

It’s quite interesting how maturity to do a degree is slipping. There needs to be an honest evaluation of these uni students because others are able to cope and do very well. Unis have brought a lot of this on themselves by expanding places and now we have too many who are not capable and need far too much help. The drop out rates at some unis don’t suggest it’s all MC students either. There appear too many who seem infantilized. However they are paying so they are accommodated.

I worked and studied! Never missed a deadline. I would have been ashamed. Why are these students not ashamed? Maybe because they can all on all sorts of “issues” that give them reasons not to comply and the unis give them help and extensions so they don’t fail. Are they truly worth a degree or employable?

Is it not about time students who are not meeting deadlines are given ultimatums about staying? They just aren’t in the right place. I know some marks will be capped and that in itself means they are not the best students so why are struggling people on these courses? Bums on seats is the obvious answer. It devalues a degree.

She absolutely shouldn't have done that, and could have got into trouble for doing so. But I can well imagine being so annoyed by that level of attendance that the temptation to do so would be strong.

Retakes usually specify with or without attendance if with, then the students is expected to attend all the classes and tutorials, if without then they are expected to complete it independently.

I've been a registrar in a university that offers three attempts and course leaders are not expected to re run tutorials for students who did not submit, unless the student has valid and documented mitigating circumstances. I'd stick with the line of no extra tutorials for fails. I might be inclined as others have said to put this information in the module handbook (in red and in upper case!).

I doubt that any complaint would be upheld if a student had not attended taught sessions or planned tutorials and who did not have mit circs.

However, if you as a lecturer are judged by your module pass rate for annual appraisal, then you may find you need to run something (online perhaps) for the later submissions dates. It's shit I agree and it's an admin nightmare for all the late marks. Personally I think three attempts is too lenient but it tends to be the larger universities with huge module numbers (think 700 students taking a module!) that offer this.

Yes absolutely - I am responsible for supervising trainees at work and find that in some cases (certainly not all - some are excellent) they still expect to be babied and spoonfed in the workplace, after a minimum of four years’ tertiary education and while being paid over £50k per year. We have constant calls for more feedback, but what they really want is either to be told they are brilliant or told the answer - if you try to give gentle feedback on how they can improve they don’t like it one bit.

I think two things to improve the situation. Have a written statement on their VLE saying that feedback will only be given up to x date.

Also enforce the first deadline more. Is there a penalty for missing it, ie capping the grade at 40% for a late hand in? Seems bonkers to me that they can just pick a date.

but if there are options of dates with no penalty I can see why they think they should be able to get feedback nearer the deadline they choose. At the minute they’re getting mixed messages about the hand in?

Where I am we bend over backwards no end because everyone is terrified of poor student satisfaction scores and the NSS.

I don't think you're being harsh at all OP. I worked in University admin roles (accommodation, course admin and student financial support) from 2014 until this summer, and in every role, come across students that have failed to meet deadlines/ follow important steps they need to follow for a plethora of reasons, who then kick off when told they've left it too late to apply for funding/ book accommodations/ submit assignments without applying for extenuating circumstances if there is an issue. And they feel that they can blame everyone but themselves for their lack of accountability. For example, my last team managed an academic scholarship process which took place over a number of months. These were promoted to students via email, course admin, online and the VLE. The process had a tight turn around due to many of the funds being from donors to the university and alumni. However every year students would miss the deadline, but still send in applications via email and kick off about how "unfair" it was when told they had missed the deadline. I was always absolutely open to helping anyone in need and if something beyond the students control had caused issues and they needed further support as a result. But unfortunately from my experience, many students have an unrealistic view of deadlines, which simply isn't indicative of the real world and as others have said, so many universities are terrified of poor NSS scores and complains that they tiptoe around this which simply makes the problem worse.

@Sw1989 What it actually does is make 20% of degree holders not able to get a job that is degree level. They are then dissatisfied. Employers do know what a trustworthy uni is. It’s also expensive for employers to have so much sifting to do. I cannot actually believe 3 resits is a thing!
Lower tariff unis do recruit unsuitable dc for bums on seats. Then the lecturers have to pass these dc who aren’t suitable and would never get near a better uni. I think it’s a shame we didn’t continue down the HE college route and graduation to a degree after two years of tertiary education where dc prove themselves suitable.

I remember all that so well, metellaestinatrio, and I'm glad you rightly pointed out there are excellent ones too, but for me the issue being missed is that it wouldn't matter what was communicated, put in place or whatever ... where entitled attitudes exist it makes no difference at all and the playground-like "S'not faaaiiirrr comes in to play

At some point "no" really does have to be accepted, but good luck with it when all the education establishment's "successes" are mainly judged on pass rates

Oh FGS. This guff is partly why academics are leaving in droves.

Somehow, the vast majority of us managed to be functional, competent adults in years gone past despite apparently our brains not being fully developed. As an academic, my role profile and job description has not been updated to include nannying adults through basic life tasks such as meeting deadlines. Perhaps once our job descriptions are updated, training and job planning also updated to reflect the hours of extra time this hand holding takes, then you could take us to task. But in the meantime, we'll be doing the job we are paid to do - which is teaching and research, not acting as untrained life coaches and childminders.

I don't care about my students "growing as a person". I care about their academic growth. I expect a default level of competence so that they can benefit from my time, expertise and skills. If they don't have that basic skillset, university is not the place for them.