To refuse to give my students feedback

[WiseBlankie]

Hi all!

I'm a university teacher. Every year I teach the same course in the second semester. I'll keep it vague, but basically the students are asked to design a rudimentary study, run it and write up the results. The official deadline for their report is in June. If they miss that deadline (or fail), they have three additional chances to hand it in during the following academic year (in September, November and January).

Anyway, the final meetings of this course take the form of tutorials: the students bring their designs-in-progress to class, we discuss them and I give feedback. The students who are diligent about this usually pass without issue. Unfortunately, many students skip these sessions or show up without having done any work, usually because they've already decided to opt for one of the later deadlines and postpone the whole assignment. What happens is that I then get lots of emails around this time of year to ask if I can give them feedback on their designs. Reading their work and responding to these emails takes up a lot of time, whereas during the tutorials I often sit there twiddling my thumbs because only a handful students bother to show up, and there is no work to discuss.

Anyway, I have started replying that if they had wanted feedback on their designs, they should have showed up for tutorials and done their homework, and that they're always welcome to retake the course.

My colleague thinks I am too harsh and that students are postponing assignments because they're overwhelmed. I do get this, and am willing to make exceptions for students who have had to deal with illness or personal problems, but right now I think there's this general attitude that only their own schedule matters. I am busy too, and teaching other courses at the moment. AIBU?

Oh FGS, the moaners on here are the kind that will buy a gym membership, not go to any of the classes and then complain they’re still fat and it’s all the gym’s fault.

Can I point out, this is university, not primary school, any disabilities will already have reasonable adjustments for tutorials if necessary, and I kid you not, in some institutions, more than half the group will have some kind of “adjustment”?

How likely do you think it is that the OPs students all fall into that category and both she and the uni are unaware of that?

Your solution sounds more than reasonable to me but I was at university in the 80s and this all seems to reinforce the snowflake stereotype of today's young people to me

That’s not extenuating circumstances, that’s where reasonable adjustments and inclusive practice come in.

Extenuating circumstances are things which can’t be mitigated for or aren’t expected so anything disability related would be referred back to the academics to address.

I get that it’s hard, and it’s frustrating, but ultimately you need to do whatever the university wants you to do because if a student complains you will either be expected to demonstrate that you followed process or you’ll be expected to apologise and give the student another attempt including feedback.

You're nbu. Not at all. They’re showing you that they don’t respect your time.

There are far higher numbers of diverse students at university these days, so neurodivergent students, people with mental health challenges, people with physical disabilities, from diverse backgrounds.

The issue isn’t that people at university nowadays are snowflakes, it’s that they’re dealing with multiple challenges just to get there, let alone attend, learn and complete assessments.

It’s also the case that lecturers are so busy that they often have no idea who their students are or who has a disability unless that student makes a point of telling them (which would be unusual as many students are self conscious about it because they’re scared of being labelled) or there is a problem.

Why are they told the later dates? It sounds like the message they’re getting is that either date is fine. Which means it would be unreasonable to not provide timely feedback. But if it really is a deadline then it’s fine to be clear abou feedback opportunities.

They'll have an individual plan stating their difficulties with such settings and mitigations that OP will be expected to follow if at all possible. I don't think that's what she's discussing here.

I would check all the assessment policies and what is stated in your module guide or course handbook. I'd make it very clear while teaching, that teaching ends on xxxx date and should you end up with a resit, there is no opportunity for feedback beyond the deadline apart from students with extenuating circumstances.

Everyone saying it's her job.,. It's a lecturer's job to give feedback during the teaching period. Last year's modules are not part of this year's workload. I have no time to do that. Luckily I don't have an insane X3 resit setup unlike @WiseBlankie ! I also consider it my job to prepare students for the working world. They need to understand deadlines and consequences.

As long as you are very clear on what the deal is and you're following policy, I think it's fair to not give feedback. You cannot give unfair advantage to those submitting beyond the deadline especially if this module is basically pass/fail in effect as it doesn't go towards the classification (although possibly you mean this is a L4 module).

Students these days are very well informed about resits, the wording to get exceptional circumstances approved, how to successfully appeal plagiarism penalties, you name it.

And of course, some students fail or genuinely can't submit at the main deadline so the information does need to be freely available.

I have a similar situation OP with students writing up a practical

I offer one session at the end of the series of classes (before the vacation), and a second session just before the main deadline (which is after the vacation).

I am extremely clear with students that I will not offer individual feedback outside these sessions as it is unmanageable, and also unfair to those who did attend class and only got the group feedback

Students still ask for individual feedback - I say no and forward them the previous message

I also work in a uni but it's not my normal working background. think you're being very unreasonable as you are not really allowing them to resit if you are removing part of the process. So if someone attends the tutorials and still fails you make it harder for them to pass on a resit. I think you need to make the expectations and process more explicitly though. I find people that work in university feel everything is obvious because it is to them but uni processes are another world to most external people.

Yes, that's how it works here too. :-) We have special services and provisions for students with disabilities, and as lecturers make accommodations based on their individual student support plans. These are not the students I am talking about.

This!
students will only do what is considered mandatory.

Just tell them at the start of the year that they are expected to do it for the first sitting and won't receive any feedback if its a resit. End of.

Im future years you need to make it very clear at the start of the course that the tutorial deadline is the only time you will give individual feedback. It sounds like this wasn’t clear. Also that June is the deadline for this course and after that point you are delivering other modules and have no time allocated for this module, so there will be no individual feedback.

Your real issue is that your university has you teaching a compulsory course that doesn’t count for the degree, so of course it’s not a priority for students.

I agree about the individual emails and feedback and rarely offer to respond about teaching materials myself by email. I do however make it very clear that's my policy from the outset and explain exactly how and where support and feedback will be provided.

Given those are three official resubmission dates I think you should be running at least one tutorial in advance of those dates for students to discuss their in-progress work before they submit. By offering a feedback opportunity you can then be clear you won't respond to individual emails.

If you were teaching a module with resit exams at those times you would be expected to support students revising for those exams in some way (at my institution anyway) so I see this the same way. If you're not providing any support for reassessment then YABU

Blimey, how will these students cope with a job? Will they expect a personalised schedule to suit them, multiple deadlines for tasks and for other people to shift what they're doing to accommodate their whims?

I'm all for widening access to Higher education for the right reasons, but this is ridiculous. Sounds like these students just can't be arsed.

But they're not attending the tutorials. And they're not failing because they are struggling with the work but because they're not bothering to submit it. Is the OP supposed to run the tutorials four times over, dependent upon when the student feels like they can be bothered to submit? Even though it's clear that the actual deadline is on the first occasion? The students are abusing the resits process and the OP is not workloaded to accommodate that. If she has to run the set of tutorials four times that's almost another module added to her workload that she's not paid for.

We don't have non-credit bearing modules in my department for this very reason. We started attaching what were previously non-credit bearing modules (eg. skills modules) to credit bearing ones, so that the previously non-credit bearing modules counted for a % of a credit bearing one.

Where I work there's written as guidance so students and staff know what to expect. For larger pieces of work (like a dissertation) a supervisor will comment on a draft once or twice. For smaller pieces of coursework (ie components if a module), we don't give feedback on drafts. Sometimes students ask me to look at a piece of work before hand-in and I say no because it wouldn't be fair to the other students. However if there's something they want clarifying I'll answer and then let all students know the response. They all get individual feedback afterwards though which they can talk to me about. And feedback is such that it can be carried forwards to future assignments.

I really feel for you OP, a compulsory module that doesn't contribute to degree marks must be a nightmare in terms of engagement but having to drag them over the line.

Would you be able to rejig the module next year? A colleague makes them submit a recorded presentation of their plan for a portion of the mark, and then the feedback on that is their guidance.

It would create more marking for you, but if they had to do the presentation for marks you would have much less mopping up to do.

Last night I felt you should give feedback but the more I think about it, the feedback is informal during teaching sessions and those teaching sessions have ended.

Definitely you need to game this a bit next year though with very clear statements from the get go about what is available and what isn't.

This is pre-submission feedback.

I assume these are the standard Ref Def or similar dates and are likely to be in accordance with the TQA.

If it doesn't count towards their degree classification, is it a first year module?
If so, I think you do need to spell it out more clearly, both verbally and in the course handbook.

As a teacher I used to get annoyed when a student handed work in late and then badgered me for feedback constantly afterwards. My prepared time for marking those assignments had been and gone, so I would be having to fit it into another time slot which wasn’t always going to be the next day.

At my university those students would have a learning profile with adaptations and adjustments which is agreed with the university and shared with staff. it's not a free-for-all.

Students who cannot attend tutorials for reasons outside their control are expected to apply for "mitigating circumstances". Deciding to prioritise other coursework is not a mitigating circumstance. If there is a problem with coursework overload for a year group or for some combinations of options then that should get fed back via class representatives or personal tutors.

So, I would not imply that these tutorials are "optional". For next year you need to be clear and strict about your expectations of them, and what you will and wont offer as support, ideally in writing. Even give them a step by step timeline of what you expect to be done by when so that they can get feedback. Students mostly appreciate that.