To refuse to give my students feedback

[WiseBlankie]

Hi all!

I'm a university teacher. Every year I teach the same course in the second semester. I'll keep it vague, but basically the students are asked to design a rudimentary study, run it and write up the results. The official deadline for their report is in June. If they miss that deadline (or fail), they have three additional chances to hand it in during the following academic year (in September, November and January).

Anyway, the final meetings of this course take the form of tutorials: the students bring their designs-in-progress to class, we discuss them and I give feedback. The students who are diligent about this usually pass without issue. Unfortunately, many students skip these sessions or show up without having done any work, usually because they've already decided to opt for one of the later deadlines and postpone the whole assignment. What happens is that I then get lots of emails around this time of year to ask if I can give them feedback on their designs. Reading their work and responding to these emails takes up a lot of time, whereas during the tutorials I often sit there twiddling my thumbs because only a handful students bother to show up, and there is no work to discuss.

Anyway, I have started replying that if they had wanted feedback on their designs, they should have showed up for tutorials and done their homework, and that they're always welcome to retake the course.

My colleague thinks I am too harsh and that students are postponing assignments because they're overwhelmed. I do get this, and am willing to make exceptions for students who have had to deal with illness or personal problems, but right now I think there's this general attitude that only their own schedule matters. I am busy too, and teaching other courses at the moment. AIBU?

This is something I've a lot of experience in managing, OP. Students procrastinate and, sadly, Universities are encouraging this to happen with multiple, generous re-sits etc. But we have to work with this.

I have three suggestions that have worked for me:

1. Provide all the students at the start of your module a clear, written plan/statement of what support is available, and when. To ensure engagement with this, you can make reading the plan/statement an activity that they must complete online (i.e. part of unit introduction). Obviously if a student has a disability, and this has been disclosed, then your University/College will have an additional support process.

1. Take a lead with the wider programme or department team to ensure that all of you (module leaders) are adopting the same approach to formative feedback. Some colleagues might not want to impose 'rules', but sadly we have limited resources and so a clear department/programme standard may be required. Again this could form part of the induction process at the start of a course.

1. Sorry if this is obvious, but do get some feedback about your preparatory materials for the student assessment and involve your class from the 'get go' with your support approach. Handing out an assignment task is not a passive process - use interactive/online features (e.g. Padlet) in classes where they can 'safely' ask/plan their assessment ideas during term time (and get quick peer feedback).

Sorry if this is obvious, but just wanted to share what I've done, and it mostly works! Good luck.

I think that YANBU to not offer feedback - but since this is habitually happening, I would make it clear when the next cohort starts this process that feedback is only available at the tutorials and that students must bear this in mind if they are not planning to meet the official June deadline.

Yes, I think our university will move towards something like that. Right now there are only formal guidelines for the dissertation (we comment on two drafts before they submit).

When I took this course in the 90s, there were only lectures and seminars, and then you'd hand in your work and hope for the best. No teacher looked at drafts of my assignments and essays until I wrote my dissertation. These tutorials are already an extra service we offer now to give students the best chance of passing the first time.

I think the parallel some people have drawn to attending yoga classes / the gym is apt. If you're preparing for a big sporting event, and you've signed up for a training course, it is completely up to you whether you show up or not. But if you don't, and you fail to finish your marathon, you cannot expect the trainer to book you in for individual sessions free of charge. They'd laugh in your face and tell you to register for the next course. Our university doesn't believe in compulsory attendance: if a student thinks they can pass on their own, that's fine. We're all adults, and we make choices that suit us. It's all about their performance on the exam: can they demonstrate they have developed the necessary skills to pass / qualify? If they can, we don't hold them back just because they didn't show up for tutorials. But if they cannot, they cannot expect one-on-one tuition instead. That's not fair on the students who were there and did the work, and it's not fair on lecturers either. But more and more students seem to expect this, especially since covid (I know, such a cliche).

I think you are completely reasonable.

Students get the opportunity for feedback. This is provided at a set time by a professional who is managing their own workload.

Dealing with each student as and when they get themselves together is time consuming and places extra stress on staff.

I'm a secondary teacher and only give students feedback outside a formative deadline if they have approached me to agree an extension. There is a lot of flexibility here for students with additional needs such as ESL, dyslexia, autism, ADHD etc and this is usually agreed in advance with students.

If they pop up 2 months after the formative deadline then tough. They have missed the opportunity. This was also my experience when studying online at a UK university in the last 5 years.

Students need to take responsibility for their own learning and managing their learning should have these skills before they arrive at university. I run the same policy even with my youngest students (Year 8) though I am explicit with them that this is their formative opportunity and parents and form tutors are informed if students do not submit formative work.

It's really difficult to get the balance right isn't it. I think having the 5 tutorials where you can get feedback (which are akin to open door time) and making allowances for students with support plans is very fair. Only thing I'd do differently is clearly say at the start of the course, with reminders throughout, that the tutorials are the opportunities to get feedback and you won't give feedback outside these times (mit certs and support plans excluded).

This happens every year …. Yet you just let it happen again.
make an appointment schedule. Tell them if don’t attend, automatic % drop in grade. Use your time efficiently - time manage yourself.

Many of the 'options' people are suggesting are not the university's policy. You cannot yourself as an individual module leader decide to score people badly on attendance, or stop giving them three deadlines or whatever til it is decided at university level. The university has chosen not to make attendance mandatory and at our institution you can then adapt this but it takes a year to process the new rules for that one module.

Universities are bound by norms in the sector and by fears of breaking the Disability Discrimination Act (especially since the problems at Bristol). Students who need additional support will in the future be allowed to submit in different formats most likely (and not attend groups) due to this ruling.

The only things the OP can do are to communicate very clearly with students when the feedback is available, when it is not available and run her course within the legal confines of the university as a whole. It's very frustrating at times, because employers don't in general like students who don't adhere to deadlines and have endless extensions, our university is far stricter but does make exceptions for exceptional circumstances or Individual Learning Plans for disability which I agree with, but the idea you can just tell them one thing and not have to deliver something else is not true.

You have to meet the law, and the institution's policies, them's the rules.

Surely if these students need to retake, in a percentage of the time the circumstances mean they've not been able to attend the sessions anyway, for example if they are ill and get very behind? It feels like you're setting them up to fail, or that you don't think it's worth your time if they're only getting a capped mark. Do you not run a weekly office hours session?

Yes some students will take the piss but some are genuinely impacted by health or other issues and they have no chance.

Could you and the university make clear that the first deadline is compulsory.

And that the resits are for people who have failed to get another chance.

But that everyone has to submit something to the first deadline

My DD just started at Durham and the thought of missing a lecture/seminar/workshop is totally foreign to her. She has made sure every academic knows who she is - she went to the social at the start of term and introduced herself. She has a also the class rep fur the course.
She is amazed at how some students don't do this sort of thing.
I think if you've given them fair warning that if they want feedback they need to show up to tutorials, and you will not be reviewing by email, unless they have documented extenuating circumstances.
My DD has MS. If she can make every single meet so can everyone else if they value their degree.

OP, you are caught between a rock and a hard place. Profound commiserations.

Do you think that students perceive the later deadlines as resits or as later submission opportunities? The difference matters. What is your School’s policy, if any, on the module leader’s obligation to be available for students doing resits?

Having learnt the hard way, I think you do need to be more explicit in your written policy at beginning of term. And if you are less generous with your time than policy mandates, it will come back to bite you.

Also having learnt the hard way, I would only critique submissions and I would only do so in feedback sessions. I agree with a PP that an extra step where students are required to submit a study design for approval (and possibly a portion of marks?) before running the study sounds a good idea - especially because this compulsory module that doesn’t count sounds like Y1 - and might make things go more smoothly, even if it costs you some time.

I would probably offer one feedback session before each of the resits. Or, if there is no policy of availability I would argue that I didn’t want to show my colleagues up and request that the School fund PGs to offer these sessions.

I don’t disagree with you in principle and I am not sure that PPs who do understand that (to my knowledge) academic support for resits is not generally the done thing. Perhaps it should be, but with the sector and its people in crisis this honestly isn’t at the top of the list. Only well funded senior professors can afford the time.

in that case I would clearly specify this from now on. This is the first time they've been to university, you can't always expect everyone will know everything without being told. If their previous experience in school or with an actual private tutor is that they would work around them, they might not fully understand the difference, even though it seems obvious to you.

Even if you don't do it for their benefit, it also provides a level of fallback for you if they complain - it might save you time as instead of replying to each individual email saying no, you can just refer them back to the course book or send a template email or whatever.

Yes you shouldn't have to spell out every little thing but if it's that or constantly replying to emails then doing so sounds like it would benefit everyone.

There have been a few articles recently about how some students are working pretty much full time in order to afford to live, as the maintenance loan now isn't enough on its own as it used to be, particularly if their parents are supposed to be making up the shortfall but can't/won't. They might be missing tutorials because they're lazy, or because they only got in at 4am from working a night shift, who knows?

Hi, @another1bitestheduck

You make a good point that there is a cohort of working students who are in a real bind. And PPs have pointed to students with special needs, whom OP assures us she accommodates - I never doubted this.

But there is another group who sadly just can’t organise themselves. And self diagnosed MH crises have increased hugely. I am sure there is some validity, that Covid accommodations affected brain development. But it makes university life in the usual sense difficult.

Also, sadly, there is a lot of evidence that students will try it on with female academics in ways that will not with men.

That is exactly what I have done. One more chance, scheduled at a time when you know they should be able to make it eg in between scheduled classes that they should be at. No individual email feedback.

And yes, your final point is very valid.

And then the parents start phoning.

The DDA was replaced by the Equality Act in 2010.

I'm at uni - each tutorial attended gives us 1%
10 tutorials.
10% is the difference between an A & a B

Good cause is given for genuine reasons.
Get tough OP

The messaging is really unclear about submission and feedback opportunities so in this case I would put on a 2 hour workshop where they could come along and work on their designs while you go round offering feedback. That doesn't require any prep beyond booking a room and sending round an email that gives the date, time, and lets them know that it's their only opportunity for feedback.

When the module runs next semester be really clear about deadlines and feedback - put it in the module handbook - the submission date is ...Feedback will be available on the following dates only.

You need to give them fair warning and put an appeals process in place.

A blanket policy like this isn't great or fair as some of them will have genuinely good reasons but may not come forward if they feel that there's no point in speaking to you about it.

Everyone is an individual with their own problems and circumstances as are you, they deserve to be given a fair hearing if they want one.

You have to have warned them of this beforehand so they know not to expect feedback other than tutorials.

@WiseBlankie I think you're doing them a real favour.
You told them how it would work.
They didn't bother.
You stuck to your original plan.
They lost out.
It's teaching consequences and encouraging organisation, planning and basic respect and responsibility.
As an employer, many of these attributes are missing in young people entering the workforce.
I say keep it up.
Of course with exceptions for genuine cases of hardship as you have already said.
University and college courses should prepare students for life not make them really difficult to manage.

The university will have regulations around all of this.

In a class like this that has enough students resubmitting to affect OP's workload, there were probably hundreds of students in the original cohort. There absolutely does need to be a blanket policy, with the only exceptions being for students with approved mitigating circumstances (typically illness) or documented adjustments due to disability.

I think there's a fine line between academics showing students there are consequences to missing seminars and tutorials, and academics who have no empathy or flexibility and think students should do exactly as they are told like little school children.

Like it or not, students are paying a hell of a lot of money for their academia and are entitled to expect a more cooperative and less authoritarian experience than you are offering.

"It is made very clear that these tutorials are their opportunity to receive feedback on their designs. They have not been explicitly warned that I would not give them feedback individually later on if they made the decision not to show up, but in my opinion this is implied. I am not a private tutor."

I don't think that's fair. It's very normal to be able to get feedback pretty much at any time before a deadline from a tutor (sometimes within set hours). So I don't think you can assume that's implied at all. I wouldn't assume that if I were on the course and had been told what you've written above. If feedback won't be available you need to very explicitly say this. Especially as some of your students will be ND and need explicit instruction. It's not a big ask!

And tbh this is your fault for creating such a confusing course structure. Just get rid of the multiple deadlines if you can't give feedback other than at the tutorials.

What this sounds like is you have just got pissed off at people not understanding your implied instruction and are now taking out on the latest students in a hissy fit. You say this has happened repeatedly so why didn't you change things by either making the feedback availability explicitly clear or changing the course structure so it worked better for you? You didn't and now students are the scapegoat!

I think you need to take this year on the chin and give the feedback then sort it out properly for next year so that it works better for you.

No they are not.

They are wasting an opportunity for feedback to help them pass.

In the first post the OP says this is a second semester module, so taught Feb - May/June.