To refuse to give my students feedback

[WiseBlankie]

Hi all!

I'm a university teacher. Every year I teach the same course in the second semester. I'll keep it vague, but basically the students are asked to design a rudimentary study, run it and write up the results. The official deadline for their report is in June. If they miss that deadline (or fail), they have three additional chances to hand it in during the following academic year (in September, November and January).

Anyway, the final meetings of this course take the form of tutorials: the students bring their designs-in-progress to class, we discuss them and I give feedback. The students who are diligent about this usually pass without issue. Unfortunately, many students skip these sessions or show up without having done any work, usually because they've already decided to opt for one of the later deadlines and postpone the whole assignment. What happens is that I then get lots of emails around this time of year to ask if I can give them feedback on their designs. Reading their work and responding to these emails takes up a lot of time, whereas during the tutorials I often sit there twiddling my thumbs because only a handful students bother to show up, and there is no work to discuss.

Anyway, I have started replying that if they had wanted feedback on their designs, they should have showed up for tutorials and done their homework, and that they're always welcome to retake the course.

My colleague thinks I am too harsh and that students are postponing assignments because they're overwhelmed. I do get this, and am willing to make exceptions for students who have had to deal with illness or personal problems, but right now I think there's this general attitude that only their own schedule matters. I am busy too, and teaching other courses at the moment. AIBU?

I can see why some students are so difficult reading some of these posts.

A module is taught for a specific time period. All the contact hours are within that time. There is no workload allocation for any lecturer to offer extra when they're then teaching other modules, not on this scale.

If I have a student who does not submit, I will answer questions about the assignment etc but I wouldn't be offering tutorials after the module has ended. I may offer some bespoke support for students who are submitting as a first attempt because they have extenuating circumstances approved.

This isn't that. It's a larger number of students deciding to deliberately submit late as a resubmission.

The uni is at fault for allowing this to happen so I would be complaining to management about it.

But @WiseBlankie is right to take the approach she is.

Students need to understand the consequences of their choices. How is it fair to the students submitting on time, if a bunch miss the deadline AND get extra support opportunities and get the same grade?

TBF, @Mumteedum , the late submissions seem to be formal resits with capped marks. But otherwise your post has much merit

Thanks @poetryandwine ... Yes I saw it was capped however some students submitting on time may still get that grade through their efforts.

It's fascinating to read how other unis do things. Thankful we are not this soft. It reminds me of our COVID assessment procedures. Nightmare to keep track of who was submitting when etc.

Good luck @WiseBlankie ! It's hard work in HE just now.

What @Mumteedum says.

I have all the arrangements for my module set out really clearly. There are some specific individual and group tutorials I offer outside the seminar times. I have a very clear booking page, and I send emails and a note on the VLE about these.

I make a lot of appointments available across several days - probably twice the number of hours needed to see all my students.

I have still had to chase students three times via email (and that's after reminders every week in person + the pattern of tutorials set out in the module docs) for them to sign up for specific group tutorials.

I am not their secretary, nor their parent or teacher. I am offering a series of extra tutorials which I know will get them much higher marks, but the choices some current students make seem completely dislocated from any sense of serious study.

But reading some of the non-academics/parents on this thread, I'm starting to see where this lack of concern over their best interests, and entitlement to my time in inappropriate ways, starts.

And the sheer waste is frustrating.

Feedback is available before the deadline. There is only one deadline. What's happening here is that students are missing the deadline (without good reason) and then expecting feedback when they decide that they are going to submit.

I agree. The OP’s university is doing no favours by allowing 3 resit opportunities as a matter of course. Students with resits hanging over their heads cannot concentrate properly on their current studies, and many of them cannot afford this disadvantage. To me it sounds like the university are chasing NSS scores, and it smells weak.

I very much hope that if OP drives home that the late submissions are resits and is explicit from the beginning that she will follow her School’s policy on providing resit support (or perhaps being slightly more generous, especially if PGs can be funded to do the work) the problem will be minimised in the future.

I think you are reasonable.

You are teaching the skills of planning your time, working to deadlines and understanding the limitations of resources available (time specific support for feedback).

Your colleagues are teaching that if they procrastinate and wail about being 'overwhelmed' because of poor planning and time management that someone will give in and let them off/ provide more resources for them.

Which is going to help the in a workplace?

You can’t say this now. You should have made expectations clear at the beginning of the course. I’ve took legal action at a university recently on behalf of my organisation (they conceded so didn’t end up in court) because they did something similar and now in all modules they have a disclaimer that states their expectations.

If it’s an online course or one that attracts students while they’re working working and is paid for my employers I would expect multiple extension / resit opportunities. Eg my organisation expects unlimited extensions / resits for all courses they sponsor as work deadlines always take priority over academic ones - and universities that change their policies like this would be expected to refund is.

An interesting point. Professionals taking course units in an auxiliary capacity do have different priorities. (Degree apprenticeships need to work for all parties but I would think the primary consideration should be for the student.)

As I have never heard of a university offering ‘unlimited resits/extensions’ I assume your organisation makes bespoke arrangements for its employees. That’s fine.

This is not an online course, as evidenced by the in-person tutorials OP holds during term time. (also think she would have mentioned this fact, if it were, because the tone changes so much.) As the course is compulsory but does not count towards the degree classification, it sounds likely to be a Y1 course and the problem sounds likely to be one of time management, Covid residue and adjustment to university standards.

But it’s not.

And expecting “multiple extensions” is unreasonable - it’s unfair on other students and it adds hugely to teaching staff workloads for marking. It means we can’t set aside the proper time to do it.

As a (now retired) recruiter I despair at this sort of thing. Clearly Unis want to get their pass figures up and too many students feel they're buying a qualification rather than the tutoring, but this is ridiculous; there needs to be some provision around resits, but at this rate they might as well just let them carry on indefinitely

Otherwise I agree with PPs about making it utterly clear there's only one opportunity for feedback. If it doesn't stop the ceaseless excuses and "Yes buts ..." - which it almost certainly won't - at least it'll provide a firmer response

As someone who did various courses whilst holding down a full time job, I would never have asked for any extension unless I was ill. Part of the deal, for me, was that I worked and studied at the same time and I took it seriously. Yes, it’s hard but could not imagine not meeting a deadline! Just embarrassing.

If all these students cannot be bothered and aren’t working to deadlines, and the uni gives multiple opportunities, I can see why the quality of some degrees is queried!

Can you ask the university to tweak policy so that in order to "re-sit", the students mustt first have "sat". i.e. handed something in on the actual deadline, and receive feedback at the appropriate time, with opportunity to submit an improved piece of work on one of the subsequent dates.
The current system seems to enable procrastinators, which is not really doing the students any favours long-term.

I work at a University, not as a lecturer, what you are doing is showing them that actions have consequences & actually its not all about them & when they might like to do something. Students really have not a got a grip on reality these days.

Been there, empathise!
I don’t think you are being harsh. There may however be ways that you can manage it differently. For example set some student to student tutorial time on the VLE with an expectation clearly highlighted, if a student does not engage set the VLE so that they receive a reminder to join the next one or to contact you, this does help those who don’t participate through fear of failure.

The tutorials where you are twiddling thumbs need to be seen to be value added, could you have student VLE after the tutorial with a password only given to those who attend, you join in the discussion intermittently to feedback.

It may be that if the tutorial is the only reason for a student to attend that day it is too expensive in terms of travel or study time. Would it be possible to offer the tutorial groups virtually? My colleagues were sceptical but the students did attend and if they had not then I could have carried on working in my office.

Good luck

I think you are right.
I’m going to sound old now (when I’m fact I’m only 40), young people need to learn to manage their own time and work schedules. Gaining a degree is difficult, if it wasn’t then the degree would be worthless.
I teach at a university sometimes and it amazes me how unprepared some of the students can be, also how they don’t seem to understand that they are adults on a self directed degree.

Complete your workload and provide the sessions, it’s not on you to provide free extra education because the students badly manage their own time.

@WiseBlankie - I think your approach is pretty reasonable - the only thing I would suggest is that you spell out the expectations at the beginning of the course, so there is no chance of misunderstanding.

"The study is to be completed and handed in by X date.

Feedback will be given at the tutorials on A, B, C, D, and E date. There will be NO further feedback given, either in tutorials or individually, even if a student is handing in the study at one of the resit dates (unless there are clear mitigating circumstances, which must be discussed with the tutor*)."

*- or some similar wording to cover the mit circs exception.

It is not implied and you should warn them. And also if they have other deadlines you should offer a tutorial before each deadline. Get them to book a slot so you are not sitting there doing nothing as very few show up to the first tutorial, you just spread the time in several sessions.
honestly you do not come across as very available as students who choose late submission do cause they probably can’t make it on time so obviously they won’t have nothing ready to come to the first tutorial (if they had they would submit on time!)

@Whoknowshere Beimg on time matters though! Deadlines matter at university or work. Yes, maybe students should be told there are no 1-2-1 sessions later but it’s not a hand holding environment. The more we make it so, with no failure, the more employers distrust the degrees. So no one wins.

You are not harsh, but you also need to spell out explicitly at the start of the module that there is one feedback session at the end of the module and no feedback session for the resits (and you would be smart to refer to this fact numerous times during the course).

No it’s not implied. Never assume something is implied. You need to write it in the course module information and tell them there is only a feedback session before the exam, not before the resits.

When I was working in a university, it was clear that some students thought they were paying to get a qualification and if they didn't do as well as they wanted that they had been let down by the academic staff who had failed to do what they were used to from school staff and parents, i.e. spoonfeed them and use every trick in the book to get them a high enough pass. What in fact students are paying for is access to teaching and all the resources of the university, e.g. library, IT, laboratory facilities, student support and extra-curricular opportunities. It is entirely up to them whether they make the most of their time, put in the hours of study, pay attention to feedback, make use of the support offered and earn the qualification as a result.

When I was a student in the early 1980s nobody asked for feedback from students. Teaching was regarded as a necessary evil and most academics did the absolute minimum. I'm sure it's a good thing things have moved on from that, but I do think it's gone far too far the other way.

You’re not unreasonable but if this is a pattern things needs to change for your sanity and for their success. Run another course or remove an earlier tutorial to run later in the year.

I can understand you refusing on a point of principle but aren't you going to have to read it twice anyway if they fail so you might as well just feedback in advance of the next deadline in the hope that they will pass it sooner rather than later? If you don't feedback and they fail you'll be reading it again in January so isn't it the same amount of time and effort whichever way?